Evidence of meeting #55 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was consultants.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:55 p.m.
Staff Lawyer, Neighbourhood Legal Services, Inter Clinic Immigration Working Group
There's no way.
4:55 p.m.
Liberal
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
David Tilson Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Jain, somebody once wrote, “get rid of all the lawyers”.
You're saying, get rid of all the consultants. What's up with that? Isn't that rather self-serving to say to get rid of all the consultants?
4:55 p.m.
Member, Immigration Law Section, Canadian Bar Association
I'll tell you why I'm here today and why I got involved with this issue.
I have a busy practice. I'm very happy to help the people I help. This is an area that I became very passionate about because year after year and week after week people come into my office and my staff hears me as they leave saying, again, someone went to a consultant. This is what happened.
Over and over again, year after year, I come home and tell my wife these stories. I'm doing well as an immigration lawyer. I have a lot of clients. I'm happy to help them. But this is an issue that is driving me crazy.
4:55 p.m.
Member, Immigration Law Section, Canadian Bar Association
I've talked to fellow members of the Canadian Bar Association and I feel passionate about it. I've come here today because I want to make a difference in what I see. How I can make a difference as a person? There are lots of people...Médecins Sans Frontières, they're doctors. They volunteer in war-torn areas. I'm trying to come here today—not comparing myself to that—because I see this every day and I see people and I see the pain in the expression on their faces. I see people going to consultants.
Someone who came to me had an aunt and uncle in India, and they died. Then they had orphans who were in India.
5 p.m.
Conservative
David Tilson Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON
The problem is that a lot of people can't afford lawyers. I'm telling you as an MP, I've heard people complain about lawyers, that they're not giving adequate advice, that they charge too much. These are people who have means. Quite frankly, that could be a criticism of the entire legal profession for every aspect of the law. People are having trouble hiring lawyers because they can't afford them, whether it's family law or anything else. That's why the phenomenon of the paralegal has surfaced, and that's why the phenomenon of the consultant has surfaced. The consultant serves a purpose. In certain cases, I think immigration matters can be so complicated, you need a lawyer. There's no question that you need a lawyer.
But there are other matters where it's unreasonable to hire lawyers. The consultants could adequately do the job. One of the reasons we're having these hearings is because of all of the complaints about consultants. Quite frankly, if you took away the consultants, would there be enough lawyers to handle all of these issues? Most lawyers, like you, are specializing, so there wouldn't be enough lawyers to handle all of these cases.
5 p.m.
Member, Immigration Law Section, Canadian Bar Association
I respectfully disagree. I think there are very simple matters that we take on, like extending a work permit.
5 p.m.
Conservative
5 p.m.
Member, Immigration Law Section, Canadian Bar Association
We can do it for a few hundred dollars. It extends a person's work permit, and it does it in a way that makes sure that it doesn't get returned. When it gets returned, by the time the inland office Vegreville returns it, it could be 90 days later. Now the person, the international student, has graduated. They're supposed to apply within 90 days. They didn't pay the $100 fee that was implemented by the government recently, and that was implemented in the best of ways, so people are trying on their own. They're hiring immigration consultants to help them. The application gets returned. They come to see me. There's nothing I can do.
5 p.m.
Conservative
David Tilson Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON
I'm asking this question to you and Mr. Amlani.
Wouldn't it be more reasonable to set up a regime of very strict regulations? The consultants are being criticized because they charge too much, because they're not properly educated, and because they're even negligent in the work that they do. Wouldn't it be better in these lesser cases to have consultants where there would be a very strict regime?
5 p.m.
President, Don Mills, Inter-Connections Canada Inc.
Right. I'm so glad Mr. Jain raised the point to say that consultants could be regulated according to A, B, C, and D. They provided nine points, and I've given you their 2010 opinion as well, and the 1995 report. Exactly the points that they provided were implemented by the then CIC, now IRCC, in the contribution agreement. Therefore we do not have regulated consultants who go to tribunals unless they have experience to do so.
5 p.m.
Conservative
David Tilson Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON
My question was, shouldn't we have regulations? Shouldn't we have stricter regulations?
5 p.m.
Conservative
5 p.m.
President, Don Mills, Inter-Connections Canada Inc.
For the regulated consultants, it is. I think the whole issue is being confused. I've seen the report. They're mixing up the unregulated with the regulated. So yes, the unregulated charge tens of thousands of dollars. The regulated don't.
5 p.m.
Conservative
David Tilson Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON
Sir, the testimony we've heard.... I think it's absolutely outrageous that you could have a licensed consultant who hires a bunch of people who aren't licensed.
5 p.m.
Conservative
David Tilson Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON
They aren't even qualified to practise in this area, and they're the ones giving advice. Isn't there something wrong with that?
5 p.m.
President, Don Mills, Inter-Connections Canada Inc.
We are not in those cases. That's not true.
5 p.m.
Conservative
5 p.m.
President, Don Mills, Inter-Connections Canada Inc.
Not true. Substantiate.
I've got a lot more information. Six minutes is not enough.
5 p.m.
Conservative
David Tilson Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON
Ms. Stone, the issue of access to legal aid, of course, is a provincial issue. You should be approaching the provincial government. That's been going on for centuries, it seems.
Could you give us examples? I suppose, if you don't get legal aid and you can't hire Mr. Jain, you go on your own. I suppose you go to clinics. Could you tell us what happens in those situations?
