Citizenship and Immigration Committee on May 3rd, 2021

[Anju Dhillon, Liberal, Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses.

My first question is for Mr. Brebion.

The need for skilled workers in Quebec is far greater than the corresponding immigration levels allotted by the province.

If Quebec were to raise its targets, do you think it would have a positive effect on wait times and the long-term retention of workers?

[Alain Brebion]

Thank you for your question, Ms. Dhillon.

When it comes to the country as a whole, what makes things complex is the fact that the provincial immigration levels encompass a number of populations. The skilled worker program is unfortunately undergoing some changes, for various reasons, including the actual administration of the system.

What we are seeing is that the skilled worker program is not doing enough to produce the number of workers we need. Consequently, people who really want to come to the country often bypass the system, so to speak. For example, they can apply through international mobility programs, which allow them to come to Canada and become permanent residents, albeit a bit more slowly. That is also true for temporary workers, who can go through a program available in Quebec called the Quebec experience program. Although the program was reformed, and the requirements are now a bit more stringent than they were previously, it is available and some workers still take advantage of it.

You're right to bring up the issue. The phase we are in now is a bit more complex. For a few years, we had immigration levels that were tied to the situation at the time, but some of the reasons have to do with the system itself. Those factors combined mean that the labour shortage cannot be easily overcome, even with an increase in the number of temporary workers—something that should probably happen regardless.

[Anju Dhillon, Liberal, Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Brebion.

Now I will turn to Ms. Furbacco and Ms. Bouchard. If I have enough time, I'll come back to Mr. Brebion.

As you may or may not know, Quebec's premier, Mr. Legault, just gave a virtual talk on mass immigration to the Conseil du patronat du Québec. According to him, it is possible to adequately meet Quebec's labour needs in the agriculture and agri-food sectors in the short and medium term, without relying on immigration. Do you agree with him?

What is your take on his comments, given the labour shortage you currently face?

[Stéphanie Jeanne Bouchard]

I must admit I haven't had a chance to listen to the premier's speech or consider what he said carefully. We have clearly seen a desire to bring in many immigrants to work in areas like technology. However, the practice of bringing in only people with very high levels of academic achievement is hard to square with the labour requirements in Quebec. There is no denying that better alignment with the reality on the ground is needed.

It's also important to view immigration through more than just an economic lens. For many years, the approach has focused on administration, but it is definitely time to switch to a more human approach. I've met hundreds of people from other places who have taken totally different paths. It's about more than simply welcoming workers; we are also welcoming human beings and families whose structures, life journeys and experiences all differ. Their impact on communities extends well beyond their economic contribution.

I will leave it there, so Ms. Furbacco can comment.

[Bérangère Furbacco]

I agree. What immigrants contribute to municipalities extends well beyond the economic sphere. The benefits that come with workers and their families settling in our communities are significant. The advantage to the survival of local school systems and services is undeniable. Food services, banking services and services for the aging population all come to mind. I should point out that roughly 30% of residents in our regional county municipality are 65-plus. Rural municipalities need to be able to accommodate people who will meet different types of needs.

I'll share a personal anecdote with you. I, myself, am one of those candidates who may not have been selected had the criteria been different.

A huge number of people right now are waiting for their applications to be processed. As others have pointed out, Quebec and federal authorities should communicate more, so we can find ways to help those who are waiting become permanent residents sooner and to solve the labour shortage in the regions.

[Anju Dhillon, Liberal, Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC]

Mr. Brebion, is there anything you'd like to add?

[Alain Brebion]

I completely agree with what Ms. Furbacco just said.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

I'm sorry for interrupting, Mr. Brebion. The time is up for Ms. Dhillon.

We will now proceed to Madam Normandin.

Madam Normandin, you will have six minutes. You can proceed, please.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here and sharing their insight today. Thank you, as well, for the very clear recommendations you've provided. I'd like to discuss some of them.

Ms. Furbacco and Ms. Bouchard, you talked about streamlining the LMIA process and possibly handing the responsibility over to the Quebec government to avoid duplicate processing.

If Quebec were solely responsible for managing the process, do you think it would better serve Quebec's regions and address some of the realities they face? Certain areas of Quebec's workforce come to mind, as do certain regions that have generally lower unemployment rates.

[Stéphanie Jeanne Bouchard]

A desire to use regional lists has already emerged, to be sure. Naturally, having three players involved complicates the process to no end. I am referring to the two levels of government as well as Employment and Social Development Canada. The idea of transferring certain responsibilities to Quebec is being considered. That would allow the program to better align with regions' needs, make use of Services Québec's lists—which are very up to date—and be responsive to employers' needs. That's important because realities in the regions can certainly give rise to gaps on the ground.

We launched an awareness campaign around the immigration process and the various conditions. We reached out to 150 businesses in our regional county municipality, 40 of which were considering hiring immigrants in the medium term. Given how complex the different systems are, only five, six or seven employers were willing to take on the responsibility of going through the red tape.

A Quebec-based liaison could help explain the process and make it less burdensome.

As I said earlier, 90% of the 1,800 businesses in our jurisdiction are small and medium-sized businesses. That means it is up to plant management to go through the LMIA process and all the other steps. Supervisors are the ones filling out the paperwork, not human resources personnel, so a change like this could streamline the process.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you.

Ladies, I have another question for you. Mr. Brebion can answer as well.

What do you think of having sector-specific work permits, so for an occupation, or even regional work permits for regions with a known labour shortage? That might encourage new immigrants to leave Montreal on a large scale for the regions.

[Alain Brebion]

I am wholly in favour of that idea. I would even recommend a sector-based and region-based work permit. It's clear from closed work permits that it would be very beneficial if workers could change jobs within a given sector or a predetermined occupation. The current system sorely lacks flexibility, and in most cases, employers suffer just as much as the workers do.

Businesses often call for a system like that, particularly because it would help them manage peak production capacity. Workers need to earn enough income to live adequately, so they often have to work overtime. They are authorized to work for only one employer, which can be a barrier for them. For instance, instead of having to put in 200 hours a week, they could work for two employers, as per a specified agreement. That would be one way of giving employers and employees more flexibility.

As you suggested, employees would no longer be tied to a single employer; rather, they would be tied to a sector. The issue of who would cover the employee's travel costs would have to be dealt with, among other things, but that could be worked out among the employers, perhaps in consultation with the worker.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Mrs. Bouchard, do you want to add anything?

[Stéphanie Jeanne Bouchard]

I can attest to the enthusiasm of some companies for being able to share labour. Some don't have the opportunity to apply for an LMIA because their employees receive EI for a few months at certain times, while others could benefit from people related to LMIAs. The hotel companies in our community have already had discussions about sharing a certain pool of potential candidates. I think that would be interesting.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you very much.

You talked about helping people understand programs. Yes, members of Parliament do get a lot of requests of that nature in their offices. I've surveyed my colleagues, and at least 40% of the files they deal with are immigration-related. Sometimes it's as high as 80%. Even we, at times, have a hard time getting the information.

If a business-only hotline were set up, would it be more important to you to have an agent on the line providing general information or an agent with access to the files who could help with specific issues based on the files?

My question is for Mrs. Furbacco.

[Bérangère Furbacco]

It would be very interesting to have access to people who understand the files that companies or sometimes employees deal with as well. As I said, we sometimes had to deal with people who didn't have access to the files, and the answers weren't consistent with what we had read. We could call up to two or three times without getting identical answers from the clerks. It would make things a lot easier if we had key contacts who were very familiar with the files and who would be there not only to guide but also to reassure businesses and employees in their process. We know that companies and candidates abroad who are working on these files can wait eight, nine or sometimes 14 months before they arrive in the country—

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Ms. Furbacco, I'm sorry for interrupting, but time is up for Madam Normandin.

We will now proceed to Ms. Kwan.

Ms. Kwan, please proceed. You have six minutes.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses for their presentations.

On our last panel, pretty well every employer and industry representative raised concerns about the language and educational requirements. They were saying that they don't fit the needs of their employees in their pathway to permanent residency. I'm wondering whether this is a concern for you as well.

This question is for all of the witnesses. Maybe we can start with Mr. Law.

[Larry Law]

I think it's really important to have good intentions. However, at the same time, consultation is very important for understanding the business in a particular region or a particular profession. That would be the ultimate thing to do.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Do any of the other witnesses have comments on my question about language requirements? If not, I'll move on to another question.

Ms. Furbacco.

[Bérangère Furbacco]

To complement what other groups of witnesses might have said, I would like to point out that we have many employees who, upon arrival, can work in different languages without difficulty. However, the language level required, which is seven out of eight in the case of Quebec, does not facilitate access to permanent residence. This often puts a damper on stabilizing the situation of individuals and their families, because they have to renew their permits two, three or four times.

It would be really interesting to look at the language criteria, given that some of these people already speak three or four languages and manage to get by very well in their daily lives.

[Alain Brebion]

I just want to add to what Mrs. Furbacco said.

We know that the level of French required for the Quebec selection for permanent residence is very high. Even some applicants who are native French speakers have failed the exam and therefore could not justify it. This is an important point.

That said, it must be understood that, unlike other Canadian provinces, the concern is not only that candidates be able to communicate at work and elsewhere, but also that they be able to integrate into Quebec society, identify with and be accepted by the population. The language problem is very complex, as you know.

For the time being, the level required, especially for temporary workers, is too high to facilitate their efforts to obtain permanent residence.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you very much. That's definitely what we're hearing, consistently, from many representatives, both workers as well as industry.

On a different note, with respect to permanent residents we have a high need and reliance on the temporary foreign worker program. What is clear is that there is a shortage of workers. What are your thoughts about having the government bring in permanent resident status streams right from the beginning, so that we can actually increase the number of workers in the respective sectors across the board and so that we're not so heavily reliant on a temporary stream?

Does anybody want to take on this question?

Go ahead, Mr. Buckle.

[Donald Buckle]

I would love a pathway that would allow temporary foreign workers to move towards permanent status, and if they were streamed into, for example, the low-wage sector, which is what we're actively seeking and they were able to come across to work towards a permanent residency, I think that would help reduce the number of temporary foreign workers required.

We did have a group that came to us from Mexico, for example. Unfortunately, they were part of a human trafficking ring, and we helped rescue them with the local authorities, the OPP. They were temporary workers at that point, but we brought them all in, we put them all into housing and we housed about 45 people. We gave them jobs right away. Their language skills were not good, not very strong. We have a very strong Spanish-speaking community here in Collingwood. A Spanish club actually helped them. My resort manager has given them English as a second language courses to try to help them, because they're now applying for that permanent residency pathway. Honestly, they've made this area their home at this point. They're very much a part of our community.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Canada used to have an immigration stream that targeted high-skilled, medium-skilled and low-skilled, the full range of workers to fit the needs of the labour market here in Canada. Would you support Canada bringing back such an immigration stream?

Does anybody want to take this question? No...? Okay—