Citizenship and Immigration Committee on March 29th, 2022

[Jasraj Singh Hallan, Conservative, Calgary Forest Lawn, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses.

My first question is for Ms. Ruiz. I will say that we do share the frustration, especially with some of these rejection rates. I know that you are boots on the ground, so you deal with these people and their emotions hands-on. I can only imagine, with the backlog that is growing, how things are really frustrating for you.

We're talking about racism, and we're not seeing very many results right now. Do you feel that racism plays a role in this mounting backlog we are seeing at IRCC right now, and how so?

[Arlene Ruiz]

I believe it plays a major role. I'm not going to say that a lot of the reasons are mostly because of racism, but I believe it plays a major role. The number speaks for itself. The rate of refusals speaks for itself. It's undeniably standing there, right in front of our very own eyes.

You are right. It's very difficult for immigration consultants when we have to go back to our clients and say that, unfortunately, the application has been refused. Quite often, we will make an ATIP request, but that, too, takes a very long time to get a response.

There are all those factors. I'm looking at the numbers. I believe it plays a major role in the mounting backlog. It is definitely affected somewhat by racism.

Like I said, I'm not going to say a lot of it is because of racism, but I would definitely say that it contributes to it.

[Jasraj Singh Hallan, Conservative, Calgary Forest Lawn, AB]

You touched upon caregivers. In a minute, could you sum this up?

We've seen this program. It seems like it's failing because there's no action being taken on it. We know there are so many people, especially from the Philippines, who are looking for caregivers from there.

Can you please elaborate a bit more on some of the hardships that your clients—I imagine most of them are from the Philippines—are facing because of these backlogs, delays and complete ignorance of that program?

[Arlene Ruiz]

A lot of my clients feel that they are neglected.

As an example, I have somebody who just got her permanent residency, but that took 11 years. The marriage, unfortunately, fell apart. The first time she applied, it was refused, and then I stepped in and helped her. Even the second time around, it took at least three years. Is that acceptable? No, and especially not when you see families falling apart.

Let us remember that the number one pillar of Canadian immigration is family reunification. Is it materializing? If you were to ask me, in advocating for those caregivers, I would say no.

The other thing I should point out is about employers. I have clients who have been waiting for a number of years. IRCC has implemented a change in the caregiver program and committed to 12-month processing, but 12 months later, no one has been able to come on a work permit. Is that acceptable? No, and especially not in the case of somebody who is quadriplegic. Is it fair for employers to wait that long? No.

I speak very passionately about the caregivers, not solely because they are from the Philippines, as I help clients from all walks of life. In advocating for caregivers and employers, it isn't fair.

[Jasraj Singh Hallan, Conservative, Calgary Forest Lawn, AB]

Absolutely. I fully agree with you on that.

We've seen this issue with Chinook. We're hearing about an undertone of racism and a failure to move on the algorithms. What are your concerns with the AI system right now?

[Arlene Ruiz]

My concern with the AI system is, first of all, that the first-line approach as far as receiving the application goes should be a person. It should be a human being looking at those applications, not an AI system. An AI system would not be able to see a vulnerability where it exists. Putting in that human perspective is always a good idea. Have a person looking at the application first and assessing the eligibility, rather than the other way around. The AI system is definitely not working, as we have seen with the staggering increase of the refusal rate. I am very deeply concerned by its use.

Also, the AI system was created by a group of IRCC employees, so they come with their own belief systems. I always wonder if it is affecting the way the algorithm is set up. It's possible.

That's my biggest concern with that.

[Jasraj Singh Hallan, Conservative, Calgary Forest Lawn, AB]

Thank you so much for your answers.

My next line of questioning will be for Mr. Worden. After your report came out.... There was an anti-racism task force that was struck two years ago. We've seen through witness testimony in this committee that not a single person has been reprimanded or fired to date for any of the disgusting acts of racism. In fact, last week, we found out that managers who were being racist towards employees even got bonuses. It seems like there's a lack of discipline.

Do you feel that lack of discipline or no one being reprimanded? How can that be addressed? How can we address the racism that's happening?

[Craig Worden]

I do have to stick to what we heard in our research efforts. We actually heard a number of suggestions from the participants.

One of them—and I heard it in the previous panel—was to institute a permanent anti-racism ombudsman that had resources and teeth. That was a definite response that we heard from the respondents.

We also heard that more accountability was needed—that you needed to create a system for reporting incidents and providing feedback anonymously.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Mr. Worden, I'm sorry for interrupting. The time is up for Mr. Hallan. You'll get an opportunity to speak further as we go into our round of questioning.

We will now proceed to Mr. Dhaliwal.

Mr. Dhaliwal, you have six minutes.

[Sukh Dhaliwal, Liberal, Surrey—Newton, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Madam Chair, my first question is for Mr. Worden.

According to this study, IRCC's mandate was a key factor in employees feeling devoted and gratified in their profession.

What would you recommend going forward to ensure long-term progress against microaggressions and other forms of micro levels of racism at IRCC?

Can you pinpoint key elements of IRCC's mandate that employees, specifically the employees from visible minority communities, consider imperative in their role at IRCC?

[Craig Worden]

Thank you.

We definitely heard loud and clear from the focus group participants that they were attracted to work at IRCC because they had a passionate alignment with the mandate of IRCC. Many of the employees at the junior levels are a product of immigration, whether as a first- or second-generation Canadian. They came to IRCC with a lot of excitement, passion and empathy to fulfill the department's mandate.

When they've witnessed racism, bias and discrimination within the department or in terms of how its policies are executed, it's led to a fair bit of demoralization and disappointment.

We did hear from them—and this sort of follows up on the previous question as well—recommendations in terms of accountability, such as creating a system for reporting incidents and providing feedback anonymously, creating a permanent anti-racism ombudsman, and having a better commitment to training both senior and junior employees in anti-racism and intercultural competency, so they know what is wrong and inappropriate and what is right and appropriate in their interactions with both employees and client groups. That is something they saw as severely lacking. There are really no processes in place in a real, effective way to report on these instances or to take action on them when they do, or to do so in an accountable way.

They do want to see a greater encouragement of each employee to be responsible to speak up when they hear racist, discriminatory or microaggressive utterances or activities at the workplace in an effort to create a better corporate culture at IRCC.

They also would like to see changes to how hiring and promotions are done at the department. That includes eliminating this notion of “best fit” because best fit often ends up being defined by someone who is not racialized and they tend to look for people more like them.

This is a big problem and it relates to what we heard loud and clear from focus group participants. It is that this is a very diverse workforce, but the diversity in the workforce at IRCC tends to be in the junior rungs or relegated to operational sectors within the department. As you go up the ladder at IRCC, it is far less diverse and that is seen to be a problem. That needs to be changed as well in order to bring about change within the department.

They wanted to see candidate searches for management positions extended to cities with more diverse populations, with compensation for relocation where necessary.

They would also like to see the creation of a mentorship system to help racialized employees navigate the path to promotion.

Another recommendation was to create clear objectives for promoting racialized employees throughout their organization and to incentivize management to achieve these objectives.

Those are many—but not all, by any stretch—of some of the concrete recommendations we've heard from the focus group participants.

[Sukh Dhaliwal, Liberal, Surrey—Newton, BC]

Thank you very much.

Madam Chair, my next question goes to Christian Blanchette. It's not only an issue that you face in Quebec. In fact, when I talked to the B.C. francophone association, they found the same issue—it's really hard to attract and retain francophone immigrants outside of Quebec. What are some of the tangible steps that government can take to attract and retain francophone immigrants outside of Quebec?

[Christian Blanchette]

I think it is important to properly support francophone communities outside Quebec and, more importantly, to create in those communities a vibrant environment of life in French. I think communities and universities with francophone Canadian diversity are facing the same challenges as us when it comes to file processing. However, they have an even more significant difficulty to address, that of better integrating francophone students. Their community's vitality depends on that.

[Sukh Dhaliwal, Liberal, Surrey—Newton, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Your time is up, Mr. Dhaliwal. We will now proceed to Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe.

Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe, you have six minutes.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I want to thank the witnesses who have made the effort to come testify before the committee today as part of this extremely important study.

Your testimony will help us write a report and make recommendations. Thank you for that.

Mr. Blanchette, it was not your last name that spoke to me, although I do like it, but rather the fact that we are experiencing the same thing in the Saguenay—Lac-Saint‑Jean riding I represent. The acceptance rate is only 40% at the Université du Québec à Chicoutimi and 29% at the Université du Québec à Rimouski.

You just told us that the acceptance rate is 21% at the UQTR, while it is 90% at McGill University. That is a significant discrepancy. We see that francophone students from Africa are being discriminated against. We know how that impacts their life. We are talking about broken dreams for those young people whose application is refused. You talked a bit about repercussions for Quebec society. When they complete their studies, those young people get a Quebec diploma. They speak French and have created a social circle for themselves. Some of them have probably already been approached by employers.

I would like you to tell us more about the impact that refusal rate has on your educational institution. I think it would be important for the committee to know how much and in what way this affects you.

[Christian Blanchette]

All universities must engage in international recruitment, as diverse views help conduct better research and create better training for Canadian and Quebec students. Universities are very rigorous in the analysis of files. We have grids and analytical tools that enable us to gauge the quality of students' initial training and to determine whether they could complete their studies at our university.

The fact that our universities must process a tremendous number of files to be able to welcome one student is a significant weight. The challenge of recruiting in French as much bigger for universities in our region. That is the case across Canada and, most certainly, in Quebec. The differences between McGill University and the UQTR or the UQAC, which you pointed out, are due to the fact that the recruitment pools are completely different. Anglophone universities do a lot of recruitment in India, and China and in Asia, where the acceptance rates are 90%. There is an absolutely phenomenal discrepancy.

Of course, we welcome students from Europe, which doesn't really lead to issues, but, at the UQTR, we first target the African pool, as we operate only in French. So that has a major impact.

We are making significant efforts to identify strong candidates in Africa. The analysis of their file requires a lot of work, but the outcomes are very disappointing. Nevertheless, we are managing to welcome an increasing number of those students.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Earlier, during your presentation, you talked about the dual intent issue. Those young people are invited here and an insinuation is made that there will probably be work for them, given the significant labour shortage Quebec is facing. But, at the end of the day, an officer announces to them that their application is refused. They are told we are concerned they won't return to their country. There is a fundamental contradiction there.

[Christian Blanchette]

Public policy, both federal and provincial, is inconsistent. We want to attract immigrants, but there is total inconsistency in what the government or IRCC are doing. Why is one of the refusal criteria the immigrant potentially not returning to their country after their studies, when we want them to come live here? When I heard about that, I told myself that it was too shocking to be right and true. But that is really happening.

A candidate who comes to study in Quebec or in Canada will spend three or four years learning how our country and our society work. That will improve their ability to integrate into society. Those students' academic path is a success factor in their integration. The federal government or IRCC should use that vector or that immigration channel or path to ensure immigrants' effective and successful integration.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

A witness spoke earlier about IRCC's opacity and a lack of transparency throughout the process. That may be an aspect that can be worked on to advance things. As a college president, you would be happy if IRCC was more transparent in the process.

[Christian Blanchette]

It is a bit insulting for us and for all universities that IRCC is telling students that their past training is inadequate. We have the expertise required to determine that those candidates meet the requirements of a Canadian university, which also apply to Canadian-born students. To resolve the opacity issue, universities would need to be able to speak to someone about file processing.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

That is exactly where I was going with this.

[Christian Blanchette]

However, there is no one to talk to right now. That creates problems for Canada's entire university sector.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

So that would be one of your main demands.

[Christian Blanchette]

Exactly.