Citizenship and Immigration Committee on May 3rd, 2022

[Caroline Xavier]

The Pollara report was done by an independent firm that we contracted, and it was done on an anonymous basis. The information that is provided on the Library and Archives website, as well as that on our intranet, is exactly the information that we have. We don't have any additional information to provide to you with more background on that, because it was intentionally done in an anonymous manner so that there would be no fear or concerns by the employees—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

That sounds reasonable. I'll follow up if the stakeholders have any further suggestions around that.

Can you provide all contracts that IRCC holds with Deloitte & Touche LLP, Accenture and McKinsey regarding artificial intelligence, digital platform modernization, Chinook and the digital services response project?

[Caroline Xavier]

I will have to assess whether that's feasible.

With regard to the digital platform modernization, this project is under way and is right now in the contracting process. There is no contracting that has occurred with regard to digital platform modernization, in particular phase 3, for which the funding was recently provided in budget 2021. As a result, the work is under way and vendors have been engaged, but there's a very clearly outlined RFP that will be put out to be able to do the necessary steps on that.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you. Please provide what is available along those lines, as well as information as contracts are signed.

Can you provide the privacy analysis conducted with respect to Chinook and contracts between IRCC and ApplyBoard and between IRCC and ApplyProof since 2015?

[Caroline Xavier]

Madam Chair, if that information exists with regard to ApplyBoard and the other one, we will provide that information, as well as the privacy analysis that was requested.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you.

Can you provide the project launch terms of reference and road map documents for the service transformation strategy and road map, the IM/IT strategy and road map project and the TDSS innovation strategy?

[Caroline Xavier]

Madam Chair, if that information exists, we will provide it to the committee.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you.

Can you provide all editions of the IRCC policy playbook on automated support for decision-making, as well as any additional programming information and instructions used for advanced analytical systems?

[Caroline Xavier]

With regard to the playbook, it continues to be an evergreen document, for the reason that we continue to update it as we learn more of what we need to be doing with regard to that. However, we can absolutely provide it. I believe it's also an undertaking to the committee.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I am aware that some of these items may overlap with things that other members have asked for, and I want to recognize the good work done by all members on this issue. We are being asked by stakeholders for this kind of information because it's in the interest of transparency and it helps them to understand how to hold the government accountable and how to advise Canadians about the way these decisions are made.

In the remaining time, in response to another member it was said that quality assurance is done on the staffing side, because the systems like Chinook inform decisions made by staff as the staff making the decision. At the end of the day, if those systems are informing those decisions, those systems require some quality assurance mechanisms as well.

Have I understood the dynamics right? What is your response to that?

[Tara Lang]

I can respond, Madam Chair.

Chinook is a processing tool, and advanced analytics are different entities. Chinook is simply a triage tool that we use to pull information from GCMS. An officer says, “I would like to pull information X Y, and Z” and then puts it in an easy to read table from which they will make their decision. That table is wiped clean and they start again with a new process.

In that instance, the QA is done on the decision, not the system—

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

I am sorry for interrupting, Ms. Lang. Maybe we will come back in the next round.

We will now proceed to Mr. Ali.

Mr. Ali, you will have five minutes. You can begin, please.

[Shafqat Ali, Liberal, Brampton Centre, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you to all officials for being here.

Madam Chair, I will be sharing my time with Ms. Kayabaga.

My question is to Ms. Boisclair.

The committee recently heard from a witness that the citizenship and immigration department is diverse but that the outcome of the decision on applicants' cases might be more equitable if the officer who made the decision shared the culture of the applicants whose cases they were deciding.

Do you know whether the group of immigration officers who make decisions on cases are at least as diverse as the department as a whole?

[Farah Boisclair]

I will say that we are looking at the demographics of our workforce on a quarterly basis. We have recently been looking at it from a disaggregated data perspective. We look at our workforce in tiers now, looking at the representation at the entry level, the middle manager level and the executive level. Against those, we've set ambitious targets that are higher than the norm within government in order to hold ourselves to a higher standard. That is something we strive to get to.

I'll pass it to Deputy Xavier if she wants to add anything to that.

[Caroline Xavier]

To add to what Madame Boisclair has shared, as part of the training and requirements for our decision-making officers, we provide them with cultural training with regard to being culturally sensitive, even though they may not come from that culture.

To Madame Boisclair's point, the intent is to continue to diversify our workforce throughout the world and throughout the domestic world as well in order to continue to ensure that we have an inclusive view and diverse views when people are reviewing a decision.

In particular for our international network, there is also the addition of our locally engaged staff, who are very helpful in providing advice with regard to the local culture and what could possibly be influencing some of the applications. That is taken very much into consideration as part of the work we do.

The locally engaged staff have responded to surveys and have provided information to help us continue to strengthen our cultural awareness with regard to the applications that are being submitted across the globe.

[Shafqat Ali, Liberal, Brampton Centre, ON]

Thank you so much.

I'm sharing my time with Ms. Kayabaga. You can ask questions, please.

[Arielle Kayabaga, Liberal, London West, ON]

Thank you to my colleague for allowing me, Madam Chair, to ask a question again.

I want to go back to the question that I didn't get a chance to finish and get an answer on. Could we go to Madam Xavier to answer this question?

The first part of the comment was that we're looking to see if these students are going to go back to their country. Can we go back to that, given that we're looking at labour shortages and our country's response to that? Why is it that when it comes to African students, we want to enforce those rules more than for other parts of the world?

[Caroline Xavier]

Just to start off, every application that is submitted for an international student—or any application, for that matter, but in particular because we're talking about international students—each application is looked at on its own merit and its own application in the unique way in which it's submitted.

We are not looking at it from the perspective that because it's from Africa, it should be responded to in some manner. It's all based on the data that we have and—

[Arielle Kayabaga, Liberal, London West, ON]

My apologies for cutting you off, Ms. Xavier.

I emphasize that question because this is a response we had received from your team, so I go back to the specific mention of fraud, financial reasons or potentially not going back to Africa.

Can you respond to why these are measures that IRCC is taking when it comes to African students versus other students from across the world?

[Caroline Xavier]

What I am trying to say is that those measures, whether it's for fraud, reasons of finance or reasons of not returning, are looked at in all applications and not just in the applications of students originating from Africa.

[Arielle Kayabaga, Liberal, London West, ON]

Thank you.

If there are higher rates of refusals in African countries, can you comment as to why? Witnesses have said they think racism is involved. Do you think the same?

[Caroline Xavier]

Thank you for the question.

What we think is that it's possible that racism could be at play. Part of what we're doing is that analysis to do that quality assurance, as we've been discussing, to ensure whether or not the application has been looked at through the lens of the facts provided and against the rules that might be applied.

[Arielle Kayabaga, Liberal, London West, ON]

For the sake of time, Ms. Xavier—

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Sorry for interrupting, but the time is up for Ms. Kayabaga. We will now proceed to Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe for two and half minutes.

Just as a reminder, if members are moving about in the room, they should please wear masks. These are the health measures we have to make sure that we follow.

We will now proceed to Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe for two and a half minutes.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Let's move into problem-solving mode. After all, it's not all about expressing opposition or support; it's also about coming up with solutions.

Ms. Boisclair, I have a question for you.

A few weeks ago, we heard from a witness who recommended that interviews with visa officers be recorded so that the officer could focus on the interview, not on taking notes or writing their report. That way, a record of the interview would be available if the decision were ever appealed.

What do you think of that recommendation?