Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Feb. 3rd, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

I call the meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number three of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration.

Given the ongoing pandemic situation and in light of the recommendations from health authorities as well as the directive of the Board of Internal Economy on October 19, 2021, to remain healthy and safe, all those attending the meeting in person are to maintain two-metre physical distancing and must wear a non-medical mask when circulating in the room. It is highly recommended that the mask be worn at all times, including when seated. You must maintain proper hand hygiene by using the hand sanitizer provided at the room entrance.

As the chair, I will be enforcing these measures for the duration of the meeting, and I thank members in advance for their co-operation.

To ensure an orderly meeting, I would like to outline a few rules to follow.

Members and witnesses may speak in the official language of their choice. Interpretation services are available for this meeting. You have the choice at the bottom of your screen of floor, English or French. If interpretation is lost, please inform me immediately, and we will ensure interpretation is properly restored before resuming the proceedings. The “raise hand” feature at the bottom of the screen can be used at any time if you wish to speak or alert the chair.

For members participating in person, proceed as you usually would when the whole committee is meeting in person in a committee room. Keep in mind the Board of Internal Economy's guidelines for mask use and health protocols.

Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name. If you are on the video conference, please click on the microphone icon to unmute yourself. For those in the room, your microphone will be controlled as it normally is by the proceedings and verification officer. When speaking, please speak slowly and clearly. When you are not speaking, your microphone should be on mute.

All comments by members and witnesses should be addressed through the chair.

With regard to a speaking list, the committee clerk and I will do our best to maintain a consolidated order of speaking for all members, whether they are participating virtually or in person.

Today the committee is continuing its study on the recruitment and acceptance rates of foreign students. It's my pleasure to introduce the witnesses for the first panel today.

We have three witnesses for our first panel. I would like to welcome Lou Janssen Dangzalan, immigration lawyer; Wei William Tao, Canadian immigration lawyer and co-founder of the Arenous Foundation; and our third witnesses for the first panel are Christian Fotang, chair of the board of directors, and Jared Maltais, interim executive director. They represent the Canadian Alliance of Student Associations.

I would like to welcome our witnesses and thank them for appearing before this committee today as we continue our study on the recruitment and acceptance rate of foreign students.

I would like to make a few comments for the benefit of the witnesses.

Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name. When you are ready to speak, you can click on the microphone icon to activate your mike.

Interpretation in this video conference will work very much like in a regular committee meeting.

When speaking, please speak slowly and clearly. When you are not speaking, your mike should be on mute.

All witnesses will be provided with five minutes for their opening remarks, and then we will go into rounds of questioning from our MPs.

With that, once again I welcome our witnesses, and I will now pass the floor to Mr. Lou Janssen Dangzalan, immigration lawyer.

You will have five minutes for your opening remarks. You can please start.

[Lou Janssen Dangzalan, Immigration Lawyer, As an Individual]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Hello, my name is Lou Janssen Dangzalan, and I am speaking to you from Toronto. I acknowledge that I am in the traditional territories of the Mississaugas of New Credit.

I have provided a brief submission that includes appendices and tables that provide more detail on the data from the disclosures by Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada, or IRCC.

I'm basing this on statistics, and I'll highlight a few key facts.

I'd like to clarify a few troubling statistics, and I refer you to appendix A of the brief.

In appendix B, there is a map of the world that shows a very high refusal trend for countries in Africa, especially in West Africa, where we find the French‑speaking countries. The reason for Africa's underperformance is a mystery. I refer you again to appendix A. We have analyzed whether there is a relationship between the acceptance rate—

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

I'm sorry for interrupting. I've stopped the clock.

The French and English are coming at the same time.

Mr. Dangzalan, have you selected the French language on your screen?

[Lou Janssen Dangzalan]

No. I selected “off” for the floor.

[The Clerk of the Committee, Ms. Stephanie Bond]

I believe it's a problem on our side. I apologize for that.

Please continue and we'll verify.

[Lou Janssen Dangzalan]

Thank you, Madam Chair. I'll start the paragraph over from the beginning.

We have analyzed whether there is a relationship between the acceptance rate and economic factors such as GDP per capita, with purchasing power parity considered, and yes there is a positive correlation.

However, there is a limitation to this relationship. It only applies to numbers between $3,000 and $15,000. That is, the rule does not apply to French‑speaking African countries because the vast majority of these countries do not fall into this range. There needs to be more analysis on this, and I hope that the committee will ask IRCC to produce the data.

That is why I have tried to identify other factors that may explain the discrepancy. Here are some theories.

Media reports have suggested that Chinook, a processing tool developed by IRCC, is responsible for the decline. My colleague Wei William Tao will discuss the processing of applications in Chinook, Excel‑based software used to process visa applications in bulk. You can refer to appendix C where you can see if Chinook is used in a given office.

In summary, at this point, based on our limited information, it is not clear whether or not a causal link exists between Chinook and the acceptance rate. What is clear is that we are seeing a decline in confidence in the system when talking to clients, the international students. Again, I hope that the committee will request the data from IRCC.

Are there other factors? I'm wondering if there is a lack of resources for visa offices in Africa because applications for study permits from African countries are not processed in the same country as shown in appendix C.

Conversely, applications from major source countries, including China, India, the Philippines, and the United States, are processed locally. Some of these countries even have several offices. In French‑speaking Africa, however, most applications are processed in Dakar, Accra or Dar es Salaam. The majority of them are processed in Dakar.

The advantage of having an application processed in your country is that the decision‑makers on site are more in tune with the realities on the ground. Moreover, it is no secret that inter‑African racism exists. Mixing applications as if they were homogeneous is a big problem. Is it about racism? That's the question.

This is all against the backdrop of the recent immigration report on anti‑racism. Widespread internal references to certain African nations as “the dirty 30” have been noted. The committee may wish to inquire further with IRCC to list these countries. It would be interesting to see if they are French‑speaking countries.

All this exposes IRCC to costly litigation. Having study permit applications adjudicated by the courts is a waste of taxpayer dollars and judicial resources.

I have four recommendations.

First, more resources should be allocated for visa processing.

Second, race‑based data should be collected, as we submitted to this committee last year.

Third, offices with high refusal rates should be automatically audited. This audit should be done by a third party. If the committee recommends the creation of an immigration ombudsman, this function can be incorporated into its mandate. Perhaps the Auditor General could be tasked by Parliament to investigate. We see that the vast majority of applications are processed in Dakar for francophone Africa, and we wonder about that. What happens in that office? Are there any measures to prevent bias? Do such measures exist?

Fourth, IRCC needs to undertake genuine public consultations on the deployment of new technologies such as Chinook and artificial intelligence. There needs to be more transparency. Stakeholder engagement is essential, and IRCC should engage with immigration and privacy lawyers.

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Thank you, Mr. Dangzalan.

Before I go to our next witness, I just want to indicate for all the witnesses and the members that I will show you a one-minute card, a 30-second card and then a stop card. Once I show you a 30-second card, please start wrapping up.

We will now proceed to Mr. Tao. Mr. Tao is a Canadian immigration lawyer and co-founder of the Arenous Foundation.

Mr. Tao, you will have five minutes for your opening remarks.

[Wei William Tao, Canadian Immigration Lawyer and Co-Founder of the Arenous Foundation, As an Individual]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I am presenting today from the traditional, unceded and ancestral territories of the Musqueam, Squamish, Tsleil-Waututh and Qayqayt nations, in Burnaby, B.C.

In my five minutes today, I will highlight the key points that I put forth in my written brief, focusing on expanding on my three recommendations.

Like Minister Fraser and a few years behind, I've only just started my French studies, but it's important for me to say the following.

We must not forget the intersectionality of French‑speaking Africans. In other words, there are elements of a racial, linguistic and geographic nature, and often gender and age, which have an impact. We can't forget the importance of these problems for Quebeckers and for French‑speaking Canadians, since they have disproportionately affected those communities.

My thesis statement today is to summarize that we have broken links between a history of anti-Black racism and discrimination, which are embedded today in a system that disproportionately discriminates against applicants from the global south. This threatens to codify itself in tomorrow's artificial intelligence-driven system.

In my paper, I discuss the historical context, but I'll first begin by emphasizing how important it is for this committee to understand the present-day context for applicants, to counterbalance IRCC's narratives of privacy, security and efficiency.

African and global south applicants have greater barriers to proving their cases, higher documentary requirements and higher rates of refusal, as my colleague Lou has just presented. Refusals are rendered on obscure financial grounds or prejudiced assumptions that applicants will not return to their home countries after their studies.

To be clear, as idealistic as I am, I do not believe we can entirely eliminate discrimination in immigration, as immigration is a process of state-endorsed discrimination based on nationality and travel document requirements. Acknowledging this, I do believe such a system needs additional safeguards and increased transparency.

Also, to expand on what Minister Fraser was asked in a recent press conference, IRCC is utilizing a tool called Chinook. We have learned so far that Chinook is being applied most frequently in the global south's high-volume visa offices. It allows for bulk refusals by the hundreds where applicants are sorted via an Excel-based tool by country of nationality, age, gender and marital status. Officers' working notes, where individual factual assessments are often performed, are deleted. Risk flags and local visa office word flags that are not vetted by any independent expert become quasi-law.

Applicants are left with these templated refusals and have recourse only to the Federal Court which, while successful, is often cost prohibitive.

Applicants from Africa and the global south also do not have any other access to options to immigrate, either temporarily or permanently. Study permits have become the only hope, but it is one that is simultaneously being taken advantage of by recruiters and agents acting as unauthorized immigration practitioners.

This is the backdrop for IRCC's move to artificial intelligence, which threatens to further codify, make less transparent, and subject to even less scrutiny the biases and flaws of our human-created foundation. This system will have the greatest impact on applicants from Africa and the global south. The stories of suicide, financial harm and students unable to cope with Canadian immigration requirements will worsen if we are not proactive.

To this end, I have three recommendations.

First, ensure that Chinook, which I believe runs on automated processes and is artificial intelligence, goes through a proper algorithmic impact assessment or AIA and other safeguards, such as an independent race-equity review.

A more public-facing and transparent AIA process also needs to be performed before we roll out expansion of AI, which is currently used in—

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

A point of order, Madam Chair.

There seems to be a problem with the interpretation.

Could the witness please repeat what he said in the last 30 seconds?

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Okay, I'll stop the clock and we will have a look.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

It only lasted a moment, but the sound cut out.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Can you please repeat that, Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe?

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

I was saying that the sound cut out for a few seconds and that it would be good for Mr. Tao to go back 30 seconds.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Let us check.

There was some issue from the witness's end.

Go ahead, please.

[Wei William Tao]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

To this end, I have three recommendations. First, ensure that Chinook, which I believe runs on automated processes and is artificial intelligence, goes through an algorithmic impact assessment, called an AIA, and other safeguards, such as an independent race equity review. A more public-facing transparent AIA process also needs to be performed before rolling out the expansion of AI to visa offices in Africa and the global south.

Second, I'm a proponent of the regulation of education consulting and recruitment. I take this position knowing that it is perhaps economically unpopular and jurisdictionally difficult given the role provinces also play, yet we are dealing with vulnerable youth and families, often racialized folks, with exorbitant tuition fees being offshored by agents who practise immigration without authorization. Our institutions are far too complicit in this system.

Third, we need to properly study anti-Black racism as a series of mistakes made and lessons learned to help us inform a forward-looking approach to issues such as social capital flight, colonialism and climate migration, and how this will impact immigration moving forward. We need to disaggregate the modern data we have by race and by visa office before we try new policies.

Finally, as you can see by my recommendations, I don't think we should focus solely on improving numbers by however many per cent without tackling the underlying issues. To borrow a medical term in these appropriate times, we should be treating the cause, not the symptoms of the problem.

If I were to summarize and give one overarching, good first tangible step, I would say the appointment of an independent ombudsperson or immigration commission—

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

I'm sorry for interrupting. Your time is up.

You will get an opportunity to speak more during the round of questions.

[Wei William Tao]

Okay.

Subject to my questions, those are my brief remarks.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

With that, we will proceed to our last witness for this panel, Mr. Fotang, representing the Canadian Alliance of Students Associations.

Mr. Fotang, you have five minutes for your opening remarks. Please proceed.

[Christian Fotang, Chair of the Board of Directors, Canadian Alliance of Student Associations]

Thank you, and good morning, Madam Chair, esteemed committee members and fellow witnesses.

I'd like to begin my statement by acknowledging that I speak to you today from Amiskwaciy-wâskahikan, or Beaver Hill House, what is now called Edmonton, on Treaty 6 territory.

My name is Christian Fotang and I am the chair of the Canadian Alliance of Student Associations, CASA. I am also the vice president, external affairs, at the University of Alberta Students' Union. I'm in my fourth year of a Bachelor of Science degree, majoring in biology and minoring in psychology. I am joined today by our interim executive director, Jared Maltais, who will be supporting me in fielding your important questions.

CASA is a non-partisan, not-for-profit national advocacy organization that represents students at colleges, polytechnics and universities from coast to coast to coast. Through a formal partnership with the Quebec Student Union, we are a trusted and evidence-informed voice that represents 365,000 post-secondary students across Canada.

I would like to thank the committee for inviting us to speak today on this particularly important topic, which has serious implications for the future of Canadian post-secondary education, as well as the Canadian economy at large. As you know, international students are a critical part of the post-secondary community in Canada. They enrich the educational experiences on post-secondary campuses and facilitate an international forum for the sharing of ideas, expertise, research and scholarship.

International students are also significant contributors to regional economies. Despite their much higher tuition fees, the international student community in Canada has grown at a faster rate than that of domestic students. As of 2019, there were 827,000 international students studying in Canada, supporting nearly 170,000 Canadian jobs and contributing $21.6 billion to the national GDP. In addition to the value they inject into the Canadian economy, international students who decide to stay in Canada after their studies are essential to addressing the ongoing skilled worker shortage across the country. This issue will only become more acute as baby boomers retire and more skilled jobs go unfilled due to Canada's shrinking domestic labour pool.

Recognizing this, it's important that the Government of Canada develop a clear recruitment and retention strategy to help address the ongoing shortage of skilled Canadian labour. According to a 2018 survey, 60% of international students say they plan to remain and work in Canada once they graduate. When it comes to recruitment, it's important to recognize that Canada's post-secondary education system competes in an increasingly competitive international environment for talent. An advantage to emphasize is Canada's officially bilingual complexion and our ability to offer a high quality education to French-speaking international students around the world. It's a uniquely Canadian opportunity.

Quebec is the leading destination for many of these French-speaking international students, but there are other francophone educational institutions across the country. At Campus Saint-Jean, in Alberta, where I'm speaking to you from, we are also feeling the effects of these processing disparities. To increase the recruitment and retention of French-speaking international students, fundamental changes need to be made to the Canadian study permitting and immigration process.

As heard by this committee in late 2020, the study permit applications of French-speaking international students from Africa are disproportionately denied when compared to non-African countries. A re-evaluation of IRCC resources is needed to rebalance the system to serve international students looking to study in either of Canada's official languages.

That said, international students of both official languages face many other barriers when applying for their study permits. The process continues to be extremely onerous for any young adult unfamiliar with the Canadian immigration system to understand. CASA believes that IRCC must deploy additional capacity to study permit processing during peak season, and look to simplify their messaging to international students to make it easier to understand.

There are multiple reforms that the Government of Canada can implement immediately to make Canada a more attractive destination to international students of both official languages. This includes, first, allowing international students to participate in an internship or co-op under their existing study permit. Second, additional coordination can ensure that all study permits have consistent working conditions and that those who are eligible to work can seamlessly obtain a social insurance number without delay. Third is an increased recognition of Canadian educational experience within the express entry program. Fourth is the expansion of eligibility for off-campus employment to international students studying part-time. Finally, reform of the Canada summer jobs program would allow international students living in Canada to participate in summer employment opportunities funded by the federal government.

These recommendations are essential for making Canada a more attractive destination for international students of both official languages.

Thank you for your consideration, and I look forward to answering your questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Thanks to all the witnesses for their opening remarks.

We will now proceed to our first round of questioning.

We will start with Mr. Seeback. You will have six minutes for your round of questioning.

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair; and to the witnesses, thank you for your testimony here today.

I found it really interesting, and I want to talk a bit about the Chinook tool, which I'm not particularly familiar with.

What we heard in committee on Tuesday was that the rejection rates for students generally from African francophone nations has gone from around [Technical difficulty—Editor] since 2015 up to close to 80% or 83%. Also, from what I heard today, in 2018, the Chinook software came in. From where I'm standing, it would appear that the Chinook tool....

I can't say it's directly correlated, but it certainly seems as though it might be.

I know you've talked about getting an AIA done. What data would we need from IRCC in order to assess our belief that the Chinook tool is part of the problem?

That question is to any of the witnesses.

[Wei William Tao]

Lou, I think this question might be best directed to you, because I think you have the stats first, and then I'll answer.

[Lou Janssen Dangzalan]

I could talk about the stats, for sure, and then I'll talk about what we can seek as Mr. Seeback suggested.

You're right. The refusal rates have substantially gone up. I just disaggregated francophone Africa, and per my count, basically what we're seeing is that there's a 27%, essentially, approval rate coming in from francophone Africa from 2016 to 2020. That is in contrast to the main source countries for Canada, which are at around 70%. That division, that gap, is too big.

As to what we're looking for in terms of accountability and what Chinook is, first of all, unfortunately, I'm very sad to report that we actually don't know enough to ask the good questions. However, we do have some indications on what AI good governance could look like when we start asking questions about Chinook.

For example, during the conference at AQAADI in Montreal back in November, Richard Kurland, another immigration lawyer from Vancouver, was suggesting that there needs to be some sort of backstop, at the very least even internally at IRCC, to have some accountability for how these algorithms actually work. What's the assessment?

I'd like to make a contrast. There are two programs that I mentioned in my oral submissions: the first is Chinook; the second one is the artificial intelligence-driven advanced data analytics, which Will can talk about a little more. The latter, advanced data analytics, actually has some QA backing it, whereas with Chinook, we have absolutely no idea.

We've tried for the last 60 days to do some ATIP requests and what we're getting is a lot of push-back. We keep getting extension delays of about 180 days or even a year on our requests, essentially trying to push the issue forward. Therefore, we can't really comment as to what variables we need.

Perhaps the committee can actually get that data—

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

Could you provide the committee with your ATIP requests, and then we can maybe pose some of those questions directly here at the committee?

[Lou Janssen Dangzalan]

Absolutely. Thanks very much.