Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Nov. 22nd, 2022

[Frantz André]

At no time did I say or suggest that the United States was a safe country. On the contrary, it is not, and that is why people come here. It is the Canada-U.S. safe third country agreement that is discriminatory.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Thank you.

Do you believe that in order to quantify discrimination...? Frankly, I've been on this committee for over seven years here and there. Do you think that we need to have better ways of quantifying discrimination so that it's not a subjective argument that's made based on whoever might be in office in Canada or in the U.S.?

[Frantz André]

I think that one of the problems at present is that people are poorly prepared. Applications are so badly put together, when people get to the hearing, there are more members of certain communities who are denied and deported. So, I think discrimination is not something that Canada supports.

However, in terms of what is being said, particularly at the provincial level, we have to say there are abuses. There is one province in particular that discriminates and, in my opinion, is completely condescending.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

I'm sorry for interrupting. Your time is up, Ms. Rempel Garner.

We will now proceed to Ms. Kayabaga.

Ms. Kayabaga, you will have six minutes. You can please begin.

[Arielle Kayabaga, Liberal, London West, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I would first like to thank our guests for being here today and having this discussion about this very important subject.

Mr. André, I want to tell you that we do understand that discrimination is not something that can be quantified in studies. You really have to experience discrimination to understand what it is and what it does to people.

Ms. Rududura, I want to thank you for your excellent testimony. You did a good job of talking about the Canadian Burundian community, of which I am a member myself, and you said a lot about how Burundians are contributing to this country.

Why do you think people in the Burundian community, or any other people, choose to enter via Roxham Road instead of the existing borders? Do you think the danger they face is what causes them to enter via Roxham Road, and thus risk so much to be able to be in Canada?

What do you think about the fact that Roxham Road is a direct link to the United States? Do Burundians think the United States is not a safe country for them? Why do they not stay in the United States?

[Eva-Gazelle Rududura]

Thank you for your questions, Ms. Kayabaga.

From the discussions we have had with people in the community, I have understood that people who enter via Roxham Road are sometimes afraid they will not be able to be accepted because they have no connection to Canada or immediate family here. At the same time, there is also the need to be in a place that feels a little bit familiar.

In Burundi, most of us are francophones. I know that when I came to Canada, hearing French being spoken made me feel better. It was difficult enough being far from home, so being able to come to a place that felt familiar to me was also important. After that, everyone has a unique story. There are people who are pursuing the dream of coming to Canada.

When you leave home, it is as much to be in a place where you are at last able to rest easy. There is also the feeling that the same welcoming atmosphere will not exist in the United States. As a result, when you see a place not very far away that looks familiar, you go there.

[Arielle Kayabaga, Liberal, London West, ON]

So you think that Burundians try to come to Canada because it's a country where they can speak their language.

Do you think that closing Roxham Road would be worthwhile? Do you have other suggestions for the government for managing that road?

[Eva-Gazelle Rududura]

People don't leave because there is a road, necessarily; they leave because they are fleeing something. Whether or not the road is closed, people will still find a way to leave. People don't go there because they are attracted by a light in the distance. That would be too simple.

Among all the reports I heard, there were no complaints from people who suffered from using that road. That surprised me. Everyone was grateful for the Canadian reception. I have nothing painful to report from the people I talked to.

All I could suggest would be to strengthen the intake capacities in places where people are going to cross anyway, to avoid humanitarian problems.

[Arielle Kayabaga, Liberal, London West, ON]

So you think that people are going to use that road anyway if they are fleeing from something. It is therefore important to have measures in place to give the people who are fleeing something a feeling of safety. They don't use that very risky road for no reason; they do it because they are in a very difficult situation.

[Eva-Gazelle Rududura]

That is my opinion. According to the reports I heard, that is what the people experienced that brought them to go on that trek and take that road, not the fact that a road like that exists. When you are fleeing from something, you find a way. We have the proof, when we see all the people who drown in the Mediterranean: they didn't want to drown, they simply wanted to survive.

[Arielle Kayabaga, Liberal, London West, ON]

Thank you, Ms. Rududura.

Mr. André, you said that many Haitians also come via the Roxham Road. We were talking just now about the Canada-U.S. agreements, to make life easier for people fleeing something.

What could Canada do to provide safety for these people?

[Frantz André]

Refugee protection claimants are very grateful. At the border, I have not really heard any negative reports, or if so, just a few.

As one of our colleagues suggested here, we could give migrants their "brown paper" or work permit when they cross the border, including a social insurance number. That would be enough to make them feel better about the possibility that they will be able to make their contribution.

They are full citizens as soon as they cross the border and we have to give them the opportunity to work from that moment on. After all, there is a labour shortage in Canada. That would put their minds at ease, rather than reading comments on WhatsApp, the app they use, where people say they have been waiting seven or eight months for their papers and are still receiving social assistance.

[Arielle Kayabaga, Liberal, London West, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Your time is up.

We will now proceed to Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe.

You will have six minutes. You can begin, please.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I would like to thank all our witnesses for appearing today for this important study, which was proposed by the Bloc Québécois, in fact. We are very proud of it, because this study focuses specifically on the humanitarian aspect of entry via Roxham Road. That is the aspect we want to stress in our report and it was also in the language of the motion.

Mr. André, we have heard about networks of criminal people smugglers in the United States who extort money from migrants. Have you heard any stories like that? If so, can you give us more details?

[Frantz André]

I had the opportunity to go on location in Florida with the team from the program Enquête. We did learn that some people are taking advantage of the situation and there are actually significant amounts of money involved. Well before arriving in the United States, people will already have spent unbelievable amounts —$8,000, $10,000, even $12,000. One woman who was refouled to Chile three times had even spent $37,000.

Their dream of getting to a welcoming country like Canada is so big that these people are prepared to give everything, even their lives; you can feel it. Smugglers take advantage of these people's vulnerability, but their dream is so big that they are prepared to do anything. If not the people we met, there will be other people who spend even more money.

I'm not saying not to criminalize the smugglers' activities. Nonetheless, the choice is simple: admit people here with respect and dignity. That is how we will show that Canada is much bigger than that country to the south that removes people in such a discriminatory way.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

You talk about admitting people in a dignified way. In answering questions, and in your presentation, you said that Canada could suspend the safe third country agreement unilaterally and without asking anyone's permission. That tool is available to it. So Canada could admit migrants at all regular Canadian border crossings rather than see them enter the country irregularly via a road in the woods.

Can you tell us a bit more about suspending that agreement? You are not the only one calling for that. I know that some migrants' rights associations and associations of immigration lawyers are also calling for it.

[Frantz André]

Thank you for that question.

The United States uses precisely that safe third party agreement to send people to us whom they should be respectfully admitting. It is easier for them to take a very harsh approach, and that results in people not necessarily entering by regular border crossings.

For example, a woman arrived in Canada with her husband and their children last week. Rather than having to wait months for a work permit, they decided to cross through the woods. [Technical difficulties] to get caught by the American authorities.

When I talk about dignity, I am thinking about situations like those. Canada has to show that it acts much more appropriately than that and open its regular borders, by eliminating the safe third country agreement.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

This is a very interesting discussion, Mr. André.

My question may catch you off guard. I don't know whether you have read the articles published this weekend, in La Presse, for example, talking about community organizations that are not able to provide essential services to migrants who come from more or less everywhere on earth and are looking for assistance.

These are mainly community organizations located in Montreal. Is that not because all the migrants are arriving by the same route? The community organizations that have to help them are in the same location and can't manage to provide assistance to so many people. Is that right?

[Frantz André]

Yes, totally. We must not talk only about the organizations. Even the admission system at the border, both the Programme régional d'accueil et d'intégration des demandeurs d'asile and the Department of Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship, has reached the breaking point. In my opinion, even if there were 36 hours in a day, it would not be enough to admit people and give them adequate information.

At present, the systems really are dysfunctional. Everyone is not getting the same information. Personally, when I meet with these people, I have to start the explanations over at zero, about the documents to fill out and how it has to be done. That puts an enormous amount of pressure on the agencies. At present, there is even begging happening: people come looking for food every day.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Mr. André.

I have only 30 seconds left.

Mr. Bouchard, do your recommendations include suspending the safe third country agreement?

[Pierre-Luc Bouchard]

We haven't recommended that, but we would support that idea with no problem. As Mr. André said, people are afraid of the American authorities.

Personally, I met someone just this morning from the LGBTQ+ community who came from Sierra Leone. As probably a number of migrants do, this person went south to Ecuador, because it was the only place they were able to go, and then came back up to Canada.

When the person arrived in the United States, they were detained for months. In order for them to be released, a community organization in Florida, the LGBTQ Freedom Fund, had to provide $5,000 to pay for their bond. Once the person was released, they were fitted with an electronic ankle bracelet. When their chains had been removed, the person came to Canada via Roxham Road, and the refugee claim process then started.

There are a number of cases like this, and I will spare you the details about how the families are living...

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

I'm sorry for interrupting. The time is up.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

For the analysts, I confirm that Mr. Bouchard said yes, he supports the idea of suspending the safe third country agreement.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

We will now proceed to Ms. Kwan.

Ms. Kwan, you will have six minutes. You can begin, please.