Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Feb. 10th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Thank you.

Now we will proceed to our rounds of questioning. The first round is six minutes for each questioner.

We will start with Mr Redekopp. Please begin. You have six minutes.

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

Thank you very much, and thanks to all the witnesses for being here today. Your testimonies are very helpful.

I want to speak to Ms. Mattola. It's great to see the University of Saskatchewan here. My colleagues will get to know the U of S very well, as my colleagues on the environment committee did in the last Parliament.

Earlier this week, the Bangladeshi high commissioner was at this committee. He spoke about the very strong economic ties between Saskatchewan and his country, Bangladesh. His message was quite simple. It was that he wants Bangladesh to be included in the student direct stream so that post-secondary institutions in Saskatchewan could benefit from an exchange of knowledge and economic activity, and he specifically mentioned the U of S and Saskatchewan Polytechnic.

Ms. Mattola, can you tell me how the presence of international students expands economic activity in Saskatchewan, particularly for my constituents in Saskatoon West?

[Pirita Mattola]

Thank you for the question.

As I mentioned, our international students are highly motivated and very entrepreneurial. Their interest in business ownership, whether it is in taking over existing businesses or starting their own businesses, is very high. They often also come from more collectivist cultures, so there is a very strong community orientation in the way they operate also outside of their academics and our campus community.

Going to your remarks on Bangladesh, it is one of our top five largest source countries, so we would certainly be happy to see more Bangladeshi students in our community and on our campuses.

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

On the idea of including them in the student direct stream, would it be helpful to the University of Saskatchewan if they were in that same stream?

[Pirita Mattola]

Absolutely. It's an easier process for students and allows students who are recruited to be converted in a more efficient manner.

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

That's great.

Switching gears a bit, Ms. Mattola, I want to get your perspective on the rejection rates. You spoke of that, and that it's an issue. We've heard that even in the granting of student visas for individuals coming to Canada, there is some bias and racism built into the system.

Student direct stream countries in Asia, such as China and India, have quite high acceptance rates by IRCC, while francophone student direct stream countries from Africa, such as Senegal and Morocco, have quite low acceptance rates.

As an English-speaking institution, what is the University of Saskatchewan's experience on dealing with applicants in terms of students coming from former British colonies in Asia versus the French colonies in Africa?

[Pirita Mattola]

I would agree that we are certainly seeing better approval rates for applicants coming from Asian countries than from several African countries, and I don't always know why this is.

At times it has been incomplete applications or issues with document translations. Of course, we have a very capable and multilingual team here, so French doesn't pose issues per se. However, in the case of some other countries, if documents are not in English, of course this could cause some delays and then might have a snowball effect on them. They might have to defer their studies and maybe consider other options as well if they can't begin their programs in a timely manner.

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

To go a little further on that, you mentioned that Saskatchewan is a smaller centre. It's quite rural in its nature. Does that pose any issues in terms of recruiting students? Have you noticed any differences? Is it more difficult to get students to come to the University of Saskatchewan, and do you have any recommendations on what could be done to improve that?

[Pirita Mattola]

Our campuses are in the larger cities of Saskatchewan, so I'm not sure if we necessarily encounter the same issues that maybe some regional colleges in Saskatchewan do.

In Saskatchewan, access to transportation and public transportation for international students, who don't always have drivers licences, might not be the same as it is in some other provinces. Those are some very common issues that we don't often think of, as we live in this environment and are used to driving around. That could be an example of a small issue that becomes a big issue for an international student if they are in a rural community. It's something that we could think collaboratively about to make Saskatchewan more accessible to international students as a whole.

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

If we think of Saskatoon versus Toronto, we see that Saskatoon is a lot smaller. Does that impose trouble, or do students seem just as interested in coming to Saskatoon as they would to, say, Vancouver or Toronto?

[Pirita Mattola]

We offer many things that bigger centres don't necessarily offer. We have a bit over 3,000 international students. The quality of service that we can provide is very high, and the student community is very strong.

In some ways, for international students moving from halfway across the world, a medium-sized city such as Saskatoon can be less intimidating and more easily accessible in some ways, and making connections in the Prairies is fairly easy. Anyone who has lived in the Prairies knows that the Prairie people are quite friendly, so it's very easy for—

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

I have one last quick question for you.

You talked about the transition to permanent residency. Do you have any quick suggestions or ideas we should look at?

[Pirita Mattola]

Provincially, I think the Saskatchewan immigrant nominee program for permanent residency as well as the Pathways program for students and access to work and employment opportunities during their studies would definitely make students' transition to the workforce and life after graduation easier.

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Your time is up.

We will now proceed to Ms. Lalonde.

Ms. Lalonde, you will have six minutes for your round of questioning. Please proceed.

[Marie-France Lalonde, Liberal, Orléans, ON]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I'd like to thank all the witnesses for being here.

My questions are mainly for Mr. Mulatris.

Good morning, Mr. Mulatris. We're pleased to have you with us.

The Université de l'Ontario français has been waging quite a battle since day one. I'm very grateful that you are here today. In keeping with its mandate, it's a francophone university designed by and for francophones.

First, in your view, what do francophone international students from Africa bring to Canada's francophone community?

[Paulin Mulatris]

I believe I spoke about it very briefly, but I can talk about it again.

African students play a huge role in strengthening the French fact in Canada in the francophone minority setting in general, but also in Quebec. Studies by the Association des collèges et universités de la francophonie canadienne clearly show that colleges and universities help strengthen the French fact in Canada. Universities therefore play a key role in this regard.

Does that answer your question?

[Marie-France Lalonde, Liberal, Orléans, ON]

Yes.

I'm also a firm believer in the role you are talking about. As part of this study, we strongly believe in finding ways to meet our objectives and improve the situation for African students, who are subject to high refusal rates.

Do you have any suggestions to help us better fulfill our mandate?

[Paulin Mulatris]

I was a bit vague and very brief in my opening remarks, but I believe it's all there.

The first thing we need to do is clarify the criteria for granting these students study permits. They end up being obstacles the students can't overcome even when they meet all the conditions.

The other thing I mentioned is assessment of dual intent in analyzing applications. When students apply, I believe that the criteria go beyond academics to immigration matters. It's true that recruitment looks at plans after graduation and employment, but that should be made clear when they interview the students. In the questionnaire, students are asked if they intend to stay in Canada after their studies. So if a student—

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

I'm sorry for interrupting. Can you please move your microphone up a little? I think we're having some issues.

Thank you. You may please proceed.

[Paulin Mulatris]

So as I was saying, students are asked on the questionnaire if they intend to stay in Canada after their studies. If a student has the misfortune to check that box, their chances of getting a visa are nil, because then they are suspected of dual content: the authorities believe that they really do not intend to study in Canada, and they want to stay in Canada. In my opinion, they are asking ambiguous questions to applicants who want to come study in Canada. Things like this need to be made clearer.

Another thing to consider are the bottlenecks in processing centres. We know that the largest pool of francophones in the world is in Africa. When all those applications are directed to a single country, inevitably that leads to delays. It's not the visa officers' fault, but the sheer number of applications coming in sometimes results in superficial and mechanical processing of applications. I am vice-president of studies and research at UOF, so I've noticed it in a number of items students have sent to us: the responses are automated.

I'm going to describe a case to you to show you what can happen. A set of twins who enrolled with us had wealthy parents. One twin got his visa, but the other one didn't get a study permit for conflicting reasons. However, their data was identical and the parents had proof of financial sufficiency. In a case like this, I wonder what the refusal was based on. Their applications went through different processing centres and each agent had a different interpretation. Therefore, in my view, the criteria used in a case like this are not objective. You need to have a closer look at this, because it can have real consequences.

I have one more thing I wanted to mention. An article in Le Devoir says that French speaking African countries are not at all on a level playing field. More students get visas in certain countries, and that is leading to discrimination against African countries when it comes to access to visas. We have to wonder what criteria are being used to give some countries more visas than others. Do the criteria vary from country to country? What is the determining factor in the decision?

I wouldn't want to interfere with decisions founded on administrative policies, but this raises some fundamental ethical issues. The same criteria should be used for everyone. It has to be fair.

[Marie-France Lalonde, Liberal, Orléans, ON]

I agree with you: it's very important that the same criteria be used.

You've given us some examples and I would like to go back to one point. We have 30 seconds left, so I'll be quick.

You pointed out that students who checked the box to indicate that they might stay in Canada were rejected. Of the students who applied to the institution you represent, were all those who checked the box rejected?

[Paulin Mulatris]

Most students who spoke to us after they were rejected said they had not realized they had checked the box. Whenever that box is checked, that student is suspected of intending to stay on after their studies. They suspect that their primary intent is not to study here, but to immigrate to Canada.

So that is a leading question on the questionnaire.

[Marie-France Lalonde, Liberal, Orléans, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Sorry for interrupting. Your time is up.

We will now proceed to Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe.

Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe, you have six minutes. You can start.