Citizenship and Immigration Committee on April 26th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

I'll ask the clerk to find out.

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

Thank you.

As you know, there is a crisis in Sudan right now, and we're hearing that Canada has no ability to evacuate its citizens. We talked about that a bit before.

Does your department have staff in Sudan, or did your department have staff in Sudan?

[Marie-Louise Hannan]

The question is whether our department had staff in Sudan, and I can confirm that we had a mission in Juba, South Sudan.

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

Have those staff members been evacuated out of the country?

[Marie-Louise Hannan]

Like many Canadians, I've heard in the media.... I can confirm that yes, it's been reported that several of our diplomats have been evacuated.

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

Were those staff evacuated on the Canadian air force's planes and equipment?

[Stephen Salewicz]

I'm sorry, but I don't have the specifics about the evacuation. I can say that we did have staff—diplomats—in Khartoum who were engaged in Global Affairs business. As to how they were evacuated, I don't have that information, but they were evacuated.

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

To your knowledge, does Canada have the ability to go into Sudan and airlift Canadians out?

[Stephen Salewicz]

It's not a question I can answer, sorry.

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

Okay.

What was the complexity of getting our people in your department out of Sudan most recently?

[Marie-Louise Hannan]

I'm afraid the people who have been called as officials to this committee today are not the people who can respond to the question. We would like to be as helpful as possible, but we have not been involved in the response to this particular crisis, nor are we the geographic or sector experts in the current crisis.

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

I understand.

As you know, there is a strike going on right now. How has this strike affected your department's ability to deal with situations like the one going on in Sudan right now?

[Marie-Louise Hannan]

I can offer a personal perspective. I have observed a number of volunteers coming forward and helping with the response to the current crisis. I've seen that we've set up our emergency watch and response centre, and in the geographic area where I am responsible, a number of people have come forward to do extra duty. I see them working on extended schedules, day in and day out.

The strike is another situation we're managing, but I have not seen severe impacts from the strike on our ability to respond.

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

Thank you.

Madam Chair, I would like to move a motion. Can I move a motion?

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Your time is up.

We will now proceed to Mr. Scarpaleggia.

You have five minutes. Please begin.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

Good evening.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I should point out at the outset that I am not a permanent member of the committee. I apologize if I am asking questions that have already been asked.

I would like to talk a little bit about Bill C‑41 and the solution it seeks to provide to a very difficult situation. Like other members of Parliament, I have received a great deal of correspondence over the past year or more from people who are concerned about the humanitarian situation in Afghanistan. Many people have written to me asking that an exemption be created to allow aid to get to those in need in Afghanistan.

To begin, can you give us an example or an overview of the challenges there currently are on the ground with respect to the delivery of humanitarian aid in Afghanistan? Could you give us a picture of the situation and the challenges that are being faced in helping people in need in Afghanistan?

[Stephen Salewicz]

Indeed, Afghanistan is a challenging environment to operate in for our humanitarian partners. As already described, the de facto authorities in Afghanistan have imposed a number of restrictions on partners—NGO partners initially and now the UN—to disallow female workers to deliver humanitarian assistance. This has a severe impact on the ability of partners to work, particularly because many of the services that are delivered are focused on women and girls. The ability to reach women and girls without having women in the workforce is, of course, a major challenge.

The challenges extend beyond just these mere bans, however, to interference by the de facto authorities in the ability of our partners to work. De facto authorities are putting in place different measures to restrict or interfere with the work of our partners. In many cases, that could be at a very local level, beyond that broad-level ban that I discussed already. At the local level, officials sometimes interfere with identifying beneficiaries, wanting to privilege certain groups within their communities and so on. That creates significant problems for our partners to continue to deliver. I think the positive part about this, though, is that our partners have systems in place to report on those elements of interference, and they do put a stop to the delivery of assistance in those cases until the situation has been resolved.

It is a very challenging context. It's one of the more difficult contexts to work in for humanitarian partners.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

I find your response very interesting. It seems like right now, no help is coming into the country.

Can you give us an idea of how Bill C‑41, by granting an exemption, is going to improve the situation you just described, where the Taliban are blocking humanitarian aid? It's not because we're not trying to send it, it's because it is being blocked, or we've stopped sending it so it doesn't fall into the wrong hands.

[Stephen Salewicz]

Just to be clear, there's interference at the local level. Aid is coming in. Indeed, last year, with Canada's assistance, the broader donor community provided food aid to 26 million people. Food aid is coming in. Broader assistance is happening.

There is a challenging operating context at the local level, and our partners deal with that on a regular basis, but they are successful in responding. Where Bill C-41—

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

I'm sorry for interrupting. The time is up for Mr. Scarpaleggia.

We will now proceed to Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe.

You can please begin.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I've been working on this for a year and a half, and I want to clarify something: Bill C‑41 does not provide an exemption, currently. NGOs have to apply, and the burden of proof is on them to convince the government that they are not funding terrorism. That has to be very clear.

[Stephen Salewicz]

Just to be clear, when I talk about humanitarian assistance, I'm talking about the broad, international humanitarian system in place that is providing multi-billion dollars' worth of support. If we're talking just about the Canadian response and Canadian partners, that's something a bit different—

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Excuse me for interrupting, but I have less time to speak than my Liberal and Conservative colleagues, whom I appreciate.

The Liberals say that—

[Stephen Salewicz]

Canadian NGOs are challenged because of Bill C-41 right now. They're challenged because of the counterterrorism law, which we've discussed already.

Maybe my colleague would like to go down that road.

[Nancy Segal]

Yes. Thanks very much.

For sure there are many challenges. This is a unique situation where a terrorist group is in control of an entire country. NGOs have been operating in high-conflict areas with terrorist activity for a long time, using effective mitigation measures to manage the criminal liability risk, through their actions, of.... The humanitarian action itself is legal. It's the payment to terrorist groups that is illegal.

Yes, you're right. The authorization regime is not an exemption. It is an authorization regime to protect NGOs from that criminal liability, the unavoidable benefit from them.... The purpose is to facilitate the actions of the NGOs.