Evidence of meeting #82 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was abuse.
A recording is available from Parliament.
5:35 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
It's quite possible that staff in Minister Fraser's office spoke with the team in charge of that. That is possible, even though I may not have known. Actually, I think the issue was discussed with the department.
5:40 p.m.
Bloc
November 7th, 2023 / 5:40 p.m.
Jean-Marc Gionet Director General, Immigration Program Guidance, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
Yes, we did have discussions with people in Minister Fraser's office about that. I believe we were trying to figure out whether there was a problem on the applicants' end or the processing end, and whether we needed to follow up with the people doing the processing. Was the balance between the open permits issued and the time it took to make the decision adequate?
When complete applications were denied, was a decision made too quickly? Do we need to communicate more with clients, and so forth?
5:40 p.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
My question is pretty straightforward.
I arranged a meeting between RATTMAQ and the minister's office. They passed on the information regarding what was discussed at the meeting. You must have done some sort of assessment to identify why, all of a sudden, it became virtually impossible for people whose applications were in order to obtain open permits in the same circumstances. Why was it easier to obtain those permits before?
What did your assessment reveal? What's the reason that the permits were suddenly denied?
Did you make changes to the process? Was the situation corrected?
5:40 p.m.
Director General, Immigration Program Guidance, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
Thank you for your question.
We are always looking for ways to improve the instructions we give our officers so that applications are processed properly.
I'm going to have to get back to you on this. I'll have to go back and see what exactly was recommended.
5:40 p.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
As far as you know, did one particular officer deny more applications than the rest of the team, say?
5:40 p.m.
Director General, Immigration Program Guidance, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
Again, I'm going to have to get back to you on that, because I can't give you an answer now.
5:40 p.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
Mr. Chair, can you make sure the witnesses get back to the committee with the answers to my questions? I wasn't planning on bringing this up, but a few things came to mind.
Can we be certain that the witnesses are going to get back to the committee with the answers to all my questions? I'm especially interested in the answer to the last one, which is rather important. We'd like to find out what happened, so we need to have the details.
Ms. Fox, some 142,150 new permits were issued under the temporary foreign worker program between January and August 2023.
Can you tell the committee how many closed work permits have been issued per province since the beginning of 2023?
5:40 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
ESDC issued 147,863 permits under the temporary foreign worker program between January and September. We had about a million on our end. Of that number, 77% were open permits, and 23% were employer-specific permits. The breakdown for employer-specific work permits was 40% and 60% for the two departments respectively.
5:40 p.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
Ms. Fox, you said that you were exploring the possibility of issuing sector-specific and region-specific open work permits. I assume you are looking into that because it's a good idea.
Am I right?
5:40 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
It's certainly an idea worth considering.
5:40 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
A private business that recruits workers and invests in its people fully recognizes their value. It doesn't want to lose workers because they have an open permit. I think it's important to recognize the investments of good employers.
5:40 p.m.
Liberal
5:40 p.m.
NDP
Jenny Kwan NDP Vancouver East, BC
Would you agree that there's a power imbalance between the migrant worker and their employer?
5:40 p.m.
NDP
Jenny Kwan NDP Vancouver East, BC
I have certainly talked to many migrant workers for whom a power imbalance is very real. Therefore, they are subject to exploitation and abuse in the workplace. Many of them are very afraid to speak up, because when they do, they risk losing their job and livelihood, and there are cascading implications from that.
I'm interested in knowing how many migrant workers applied for the open work permit for vulnerable workers process and were rejected.
5:40 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
I would agree that it can exist. Yes. I don't think it would be in all cases, all the time, but I think there can be a power imbalance.
5:45 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
I will have to get you the precise number on that. I don't have it with me. I can say I have the number of how many were issued, but I would have to determine the number that applied.
I should also note that through the open work permit for vulnerable workers program, we also offer open work permits to the spouses and family members of those individuals.
5:45 p.m.
NDP
Jenny Kwan NDP Vancouver East, BC
I understand the program. I think that's an important number to look at, because there are many people who cannot get through the process.
The rapporteur made these comments with respect to the program:
...the fact that the worker must remain with the abusive employer or survive in Canada without the ability to work legally or access most social services until the open work permit application is granted
—the rapporteur raised that concern, as well as the following—
the high evidentiary standard required in practice to receive a positive decision in spite of a legal threshold of “reasonable grounds”, and language barriers and lack of ability to navigate the legal process to obtain a permit without external assistance.
He raised those concerns as major barriers for people to access the program.
The government's own website, which I have open in front of me, on the open work permit for vulnerable workers indicates that you actually have to be employed as you experience that abuse in order to qualify for the program.
Did I hear the deputy correctly when she said they don't have to be employed?
5:45 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
Thank you.
Workers who left an abusive employment situation before applying for this work permit are still eligible, as long as their permit is valid or they are on “maintained” status.
5:45 p.m.
NDP
Jenny Kwan NDP Vancouver East, BC
The website is right in front of me and it says something different. Perhaps there is some miscommunication on, or misalignment with, the government's website with respect to that.
I have met with migrant workers who didn't qualify.
When did this policy change?
5:45 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
It's been in place for some time.
