Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Nov. 9th, 2023

[Fayçal El-Khoury, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

Mr. Roy, you are well aware that the foreign workers are always afraid of being deported, of losing their jobs and not being able to amass the necessary funds to send to their families.

What measures have you taken to reassure these people, so they know they are protected and they do not have to be afraid to speak up when they feel that their rights are threatened?

[Denis Roy]

That is a very good question, sir.

I think that all Canadians have a responsibility when it comes to this.

I have had numerous discussions with people. We realize that foreign workers do not have the same work culture in their countries of origin as Canadian workers have.

What we want is for the foreign workers who come to work in Canada to adopt the same work culture as Canadian workers.

They have to be informed and be told that if there is a problem, they have to talk to their boss, to tell them about the things that are not working, in their housing or on the job.

We encourage foreign workers to act like Quebec and Canadian workers, and that is done through education. We all have a responsibility and a role to play to encourage foreign workers to voice their fears of being deported, of not being respected, and of not achieving their financial objectives.

When a foreign worker reports a problem to us, we give them the information they need. If it is not working out in their workplace, the UPA and our partners in Quebec will make every effort to find another farm to transfer the worker to, entirely legally.

As Mr. Doyon said, the process for obtaining a second work permit is a bit long. That is why we are calling for a form of open and sectoral work permits for agricultural workers, who come primarily from Guatemala, under the agricultural component of the temporary foreign workers program.

[Paul Doyon]

We also produce training materials translated into Spanish, to provide better support for our people.

[Fayçal El-Khoury, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

You are well aware—

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

I'm sorry. There are only 10 seconds. I'm going to let it go because we are short of time.

[Fayçal El-Khoury, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

Thank you both.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Thank you.

We will go to Mr. Perron for four and a half minutes.

Please go ahead.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to the witnesses for being with us.

Mr. Doyon and Mr. Roy, you made several recommendations in your statement. If we do not have them in detailed written form, I would ask that you kindly send them to the committee so we have the complete and accurate recommendations.

Mr. Roy, it seems to me that the Table de concertation sur les travailleurs étrangers agricoles that you are talking about is another item in Quebec that does not exist elsewhere in Canada.

Do you think it might be worthwhile to incorporate structures like this in other provinces?

[Denis Roy]

It is certainly a very good experience. In Quebec, we have various forums, like the Commission des partenaires du marché du travail. We already have organizations that allow for discussion among employers, workers and government.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

I am going to interrupt you, Mr. Roy, because you explained that earlier. I do not want to be rude, but we do not have a lot of time.

I would like to talk about your proposal concerning open and sectoral permits. Everyone knows that closed permits have seen their day and we have to review the system. Personally, I see a danger in open and sectoral permits, that is, the risk of the contract being broken.

The employers sign an agreement with temporary foreign workers and bring them to Canada. That costs a lot of money. I would also like you to tell me how much it costs, on average. If a worker changes businesses after a few weeks and joins another one that offers them $1.00 an hour more, what does that mean in terms of a loss?

How can we eliminate closed permits and at the same time try to enforce the principle of honouring a contract or an agreement? I would like to have your opinion on that.

[Denis Roy]

Our position is this: the employment contract that is signed by the employer and the worker is for a specified term, and that contract must be honoured by the parties. In our opinion, that is very precise.

Take the example of agricultural workers. A worker from Guatemala arrives in Canada and starts the season with a strawberry producer. The worker then wants to change employers and work for an apple producer. That requires a second work permit. That is the kind of case we want to have a sectoral permit for, the same type of work permit as Mexican workers have in Canada at present.

In terms of the amount that the employer lays out to bring the worker to Canada, it ranges from $1,000 to $10,000 per worker. It will be higher if the worker is more qualified and their skills are in demand.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

We agree that the contract must be honoured in cases where abuse and poor working conditions are not in play. Otherwise, a rapid transfer can take place.

[Denis Roy]

That's right.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

You talk about processing times and you propose that it be Service Canada that handles the process. Could you give me more details on that subject?

[Denis Roy]

When there is a change of employer, Service Canada does the LMIAs, and that takes three or four weeks. We are asking that the LMIA take one week. For the issuance of a second work permit, it is now taking 27 weeks. We believe that IRCC should automate the issuance of second permits. If a person who has a work permit in agriculture wants to get another one in agriculture, it should not take an analysis by an immigration officer that takes six months. It should be done automatically, in one week.

Our position is that even with a closed permit, the employee should be able to change employers within two weeks of making the application.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Thank you.

Earlier, regarding what can be done in the long term, some people involved in the issue mentioned the idea of offering a path to permanent residence for people who want it. I am almost certain that some of our producers would like to help their workers who have been coming back for many years to immigrate permanently.

Are you open to that idea? What would you propose, to facilitate it?

[Denis Roy]

We have been calling for access to permanent residence for foreign workers who want it for a long time, but in Quebec, we have to have that discussion with the minister, Ms. Fréchette. For us, it falls under the Quebec ministère de l'Immigration.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Thank you for the reminder. We are speaking for all the provinces here.

Gentlemen, do you have anything to add in the six seconds you have left?

[Paul Doyon]

I will let Mr. Roy answer.

[Denis Roy]

We think that information about emergency work permits for vulnerable workers really has to be disseminated better. This tool has been in place in Canada since 2019, but it is unknown, really. We heard about a few little problems when it was brought in. In fact, RATTMAQ reported it to us. Since then, the situation seems to have been resolved.

We are also suggesting that Service Canada make its offices available to workers so they can submit their applications there. That would democratize the process for vulnerable workers.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Thank you very much, Mr. Roy and Mr. Perron. We appreciate that.

Now we'll go to Madam Kwan for four and a half minutes.

Please go ahead.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I really appreciated that last comment related to ensuring that temporary foreign workers can actually get permanent status. We heard in the previous delegation from the Mr. Santiago of the UFCW, who has been working in the sector for some time now. In fact, he has met people who have been temporary foreign workers for decades—40 years—and still they only have temporary status.

One of the witnesses in our previous panel was one of the farm workers subjected to exploitation. That situation was reported in the media, and as we learned, the operators of an agriculture business in London, Ontario, were recently convicted by a jury of seven counts of human trafficking. A group of Guatemalan agriculture workers, who had valid closed work permits issued by IRCC under the temporary foreign worker program, left the employers that their permits were tied to due to abuse and were recruited by another farm in southern Ontario under false pretenses. They testified that their passports and identification were withheld, that they were subjected to poor living conditions and that they were forced to work. The RCMP said that the housing they were provided was bordering on inhumane.

That is the reality that some of the temporary foreign workers are faced with. To that end, my concern is not the employers who are not bad actors. My concern, of course, is the employers who are bad actors and the people who are subject to exploitation in the process.

I have met with some of the workers who face that kind of exploitation. The process is not as easy as saying they should go talk to the employer and they will fix it, nor is it easy for them to make a complaint and then everything will be okay. Some of them actually get fired. Some of them lose their employment. Because they are tied to their specific employer, they will then be deported. That leaves them facing all kinds of challenges, because they are here to make some money to send back home to support not only themselves but their families as well.

In the face of that kind of scenario, my question is this. When an employee doesn't have power or control over the situation, how can they ensure that their rights are protected? What action should the government take to ensure that their rights are protected?

[Denis Roy]

Thank you for the question.

In Quebec, there is also a case in the headlines concerning workers who were victims of abuse on the part of an employer; we have been calling for an end to it for years. We understand the situation very well. It is deplorable.

We work closely with RATTMAQ, which has partners on the ground, to find rapid solutions and help workers who have to be removed from their workplace urgently in order to protect them. We are concerned about these situations of violence or abuse.

We are lucky in Quebec in that we have good community organizations, like RATTMAQ, that are very proactive. We work closely with those organizations to find solutions. Sometimes, we approach the employer to have the situation corrected. We also sometimes work with RATTMAQ to move workers and obtain emergency permits so the workers can pursue their financial objectives at another farm in the region.

The provincial agency or Service Canada absolutely must investigate and sanction employers who engage in wrongdoing.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

You have eight seconds, Madam Kwan.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

One thing I want to point out is that sometimes when a worker comes forward to make a complaint, the fallout for them, even if they were able to get an open work permit under the vulnerable workers open work permit program, is that they are blacklisted. Therefore, it is very difficult for them to manage through all of this.

There's a system problem with Canada's immigration stream related to migrant workers, and that's something I think we need to turn our minds to.