Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Feb. 28th, 2024

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

You said “brighter”. We'll watch the video together; that will be interesting.

I'm asking you to delay the implementation of this measure, because people in our CEGEPs are worried.

You have to understand that Quebec has a different education system than the other systems across Canada.

I understand that this measure was meant to address what's happening in Ontario. It's very understandable and I'm fine with that. However, the education system in Quebec, which includes vocational training and CEGEPs, is completely different from the systems in the rest of Canada.

Quebec is a distinct society, as you know. We're a nation. You probably voted for that as well.

I'd like you to commit today to delaying the implementation of this measure, at least for Quebec, so that we can look at the specific impact it will have.

In my opinion, this means that there will be 11 fewer nurses in the health care system in my region, Lac-Saint-Jean.

Can you imagine the impact that will have?

Francophone nurses are leaving Cameroon to come here and you're pulling the rug out from under them.

I'd like you to tell me today that you're going to review this measure.

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

[ Inaudible—Editor] claim Quebec's jurisdiction, I advise you to go see the minister concerned to ask her to come and show me that an exception is justified. If it's appropriate to grant one to Quebec, I'm prepared to do so, but this is a shared jurisdiction. I'm prepared to make exceptions if it's justified, but at the same time, we're dealing with a Quebec government that wants to bring down the number of people who are in Quebec temporarily. Choices will have to be made, but the first step is to come and see me. This is important for people working in health care and for those seeking care.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

The Government of Quebec was against capping international students in its territory. People have to watch what they say in committee, because it's recorded.

Do you have a good relationship with Minister Fréchette?

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

I believe I do, yes.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Oh, really?

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

Yes, but that doesn't mean we always see eye to eye.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Okay. Since we're talking about good relationships, let's talk about taking in asylum seekers.

In 2017-18, Quebec spent $294 million, and the federal government reimbursed it $250 million. In 2019, Quebec spent $120 million, and the federal government reimbursed it $94 million. In 2020, Quebec spent $38 million—there were fewer people because of the pandemic—and the federal government reimbursed it $30 million. In 2021, after the election, Quebec spent $135 million, and the Government of Canada reimbursed only $17 million. In 2022, Quebec spent $334 million, and only $49 million was reimbursed by the federal government. In 2023, $576 million was spent by Quebec, and the federal government only reimbursed it $150 million.

Why did you reimburse more expenses in Quebec in 2017 than you do now? How can you say that you have a good relationship, given those numbers?

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Minister, your time is almost up.

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

Having a good relationship doesn't mean we agree all the time. I have a good relationship with you, and we certainly don't always agree.

When it comes to accepting asylum seekers, some responsibilities fall to the provinces and others to the federal government. We're prepared to work with Quebec, but the amounts must be broken down and justified.

It's hard to do that when the discussion is happening almost entirely in public.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Thank you very much, Minister.

Before we go to Madam Kwan, I think the bells are ringing.

Everyone, do we agree to the...?

Go ahead, Mr. Redekopp.

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

I would propose that we carry on. We're happy to give UC to do that, and then we can allow five minutes or whatever time it takes to vote at voting time and carry on.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Okay. Once the bells stop, we will suspend the meeting for five minutes.

We can continue. To do that, I will go to Madam Kwan.

You have six minutes. Please go ahead.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. Thank you to the minister and the officials for coming back to the committee again.

I must first begin by saying that while I appreciate the minister coming—I really do, since this is a motion I moved—I am disappointed. I need to put this on the record: The motion calling for the minister to come and speak about Gaza and Sudan is, in my mind, perhaps the most urgent situation. I had hoped the minister would come and speak to the committee on that issue first. That is not the case. I understand the minister will be returning in March to deal with this issue. Today we're dealing with international students. However, because of the urgency of the situation in Gaza, I had hoped to get some questions to the minister and officials with respect to that situation.

That said, regarding international students, I also have to put this on the record: Minister, when you made the announcement on the cap—this is in the backdrop of the media and others saying newcomers are to blame for the housing crisis—I think it did a disservice to international students in the way this announcement was cast in that context. I don't think that is the right message. I hope that is not your intention, but that is how it is perceived: that somehow newcomers—in this instance, international students—are to blame for the housing crisis.

I can talk all day long about where the housing crisis came from, which is, of course, 30 years of successive Liberal and Conservative governments relying on the private sector to deliver the housing Canadians need and can afford. That's a conversation for another day.

I want to touch on international students, in particular unintended consequences.

In the announcement that came about with the cap—which I do not agree with—was the notion that applicants need to demonstrate financial resources of $20,000 per year. That's a shift. There are unintended consequences, because there are students who come in on a scholarship, for example. The way this is calculated or dealt with means they may not be able to meet this new requirement now. Many of those who come on a scholarship obviously may well have some financial constraints. Those scholarships enable them to come and enhance their education and have those opportunities.

In fact, my colleague Randall Garrison, the member for Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, wrote to the minister about Pearson College with respect to scholarships for students. He has not received a response yet from the minister on this letter. That was dated January 17, 2024. It asked whether or not IRCC officials would consider the total value of the scholarship, room and board provided by Pearson College to the students as a consideration towards that $25,000 requirement.

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

I can answer this specific question and speak a little more generally, MP Kwan.

We're willing to look at it. I have not personally seen that letter. Perhaps send it to my P9 afterward and I can talk to officials about it.

The increase in the number was, in the grand scheme of things, rather modest. We were at half of what our competitors are requesting students provide as part of their solvency. We have clearly seen students who do not have the means to support themselves. This is a choice. I think it's a very important choice, but it leaves students less exploited, given that they perhaps have more financial capacity to live and hopefully thrive in Canada.

I acknowledge your point on Sudan and Gaza. I think that if I were appearing today on Gaza, I would have no good news for you. I don't. I hope to have better news when we appear in three weeks, but there are no guarantees on that. I guess that's an aside, because we're not dealing with that today, but it's not an attempt to dodge anything. I think these are very important issues generally, and we should have the opportunity to deal with them. My presence, obviously, is required at times.

I do not mean to stigmatize international students. In fact, if you look at it in economic terms, a large cohort of bright, young and motivated people with financial capacity are in Canada, where our demographic curve was trending in the wrong direction. The Bank of Canada has highlighted our singular ability to make that curve a little younger in the workforce, and this is notionally a cohort of trained and potentially integrated people whom we could leverage because of their talent and work ethic.

It's notionally a good idea, but because of real challenges in the volumes that have been spiking, it was very important for Canada to pump the brakes.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

I'll just quickly say, on the question around Gaza, that I appreciate that maybe the minister is hopefully going to come back with better news, but there are a lot of questions that need to be answered. Each passing minute, people's lives are in jeopardy. I just want to say that. They may not have the luxury of three weeks. I just need to put that on the record.

On the issue around international students, it was a disappointment to me that the former minister of immigration left and shortly after that he left became the minister of housing. It was almost as though he immediately turned his back on the immigration file and started to point fingers. It is not helpful and it is not useful, and I am very disappointed with respect to that.

Setting that aside for a minute, I will definitely get this letter to the minister—

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Your time is up, Madam. Please ask the last question.

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

Quite frankly, Sean Fraser is very passionate about his former file. I don't blame him for that. He had a lot of very important views that he communicated to me. He helped convince me to put in place these measures and to have a more robust system that we can be a little more proud of. He's one of my closest colleagues in cabinet, and we have some very important discussions on making sure we are creating and bolstering a system that we can all be proud of.

I take note of your comments, but when it comes Sean's character, I think his passion for this file is one that I share.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

He may be passionate, but he's not helpful when he turns around and blames newcomers.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Thank you very much, Minister. Thank you, Madam Kwan.

We will now go to Mr. Berthold for five minutes. Please go ahead.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Miller, this is the first time I've met you in committee. However, we've often had the opportunity to discuss immigration cases together. I'm sure you will agree that the situation is catastrophic. In the constituency offices, it's horrible. We spend half our time trying to resolve problems caused by delays or errors on forms.

More and more international students are using the services of MPs' offices when they should normally be going to immigration offices. The cases that come through my office are mostly federal, and they must be addressed by the immigration service. Unfortunately, the system is in dire straits.

How do you explain this fiasco left by your predecessor?

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

With all due respect, as a member who has the busiest constituency office in Quebec, I understand your situation very well. I've lived it for eight years.

There are a couple of things.

First of all, it's not just students. We see students come to our offices mainly in May. We're not the agency of first resort. You will agree that it's mostly the somewhat desperate cases, those who haven't renewed their visas.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

My question is—

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

What's clear is the volume of cases. The volume has reached historic levels.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

How was that allowed to happen?

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

I don't want to dwell on the past. This is clearly a program and Quebec was responsible for it. Quebec was responsible for international students.

That doesn't mean there aren't problems in Quebec. There are a lot of them. Look at the acceptance rate, look at the number of asylum seekers coming out of the university system in Quebec. That's quite significant, thank you.

Quebec was certainly responsible. The fact remains that, in many respects, students face difficulties when renewing their visas. We're trying to address these challenges. All in all, if we take a step back, we see that the student visa program is managing delays well.

Many exceptions can largely be attributed to traffic, but if you were looking to find the Canadian program where immigration is facing delays and wait time issues, it wouldn't be this program.