Evidence of meeting #14 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was programs.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Members speaking

Before the committee

Sacko  Executive Director, Accueil francophone du Manitoba
van der Knaap  Executive Director, Éducation internationale
Carette  Director of Education Services, Adult Sector, Centre de services scolaire du Lac-Saint-Jean, Éducation internationale
René  Regulated Immigration Consultant for International Students, Éducation internationale

The Chair Liberal Julie Dzerowicz

Good afternoon. I call this meeting to order.

I want to give a warm welcome to Ms. Goodridge who is joining us today. Welcome as well to Mr. Dhaliwal. Obviously, the committee missed you a lot, and we've decided that we wanted to have you back for a visit, so thank you for joining us.

Welcome to meeting number 14 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration. Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format.

I would like to make a few comments for the benefit of the witnesses and for our members.

For those who are participating on Zoom, please click on the microphone icon to activate your microphone. Please mute your microphone when you are not speaking. For those on Zoom, at the bottom of your screen, you can select the appropriate channel for interpretation: floor, English or French. Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking.

I want to remind everyone to please not speak over each other, as it will be hard for our translators to translate. It will make their job difficult. Of course, ensure that all your comments are addressed through the chair.

Members in the room, please raise your hand if you wish to speak. The clerk and I will manage the order as best we can.

I'll also give everybody a one-minute warning when you're about a minute away from the end of your time. That's for the members as well as for our witnesses. Thank you in advance for your co-operation.

With that, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on September 16, 2025, the committee is resuming its study on Canada's immigration system.

I would now like to welcome our witnesses, who will be participating in our round table by video conference. From Accueil francophone du Manitoba, we have the executive director, Bintou Sako. From International Education, we have Lysiane van der Knaap, who is also the executive director. From the Centre de services scolaire du Lac-Saint-Jean, we have Jérôme Carette, director of educational services, adult sector. Finally, from International Education, we have Odile René, regulated immigration consultant for international students.

Ms. Sacko, we'll start with you. You have the floor for five minutes.

Bintou Sacko Executive Director, Accueil francophone du Manitoba

Thank you.

Madam Chair, honourable members of the committee, I would like to thank you for giving me the opportunity to make a presentation this morning on behalf of Accueil francophone du Manitoba.

My name is Bintou Sacko and I have been the director of Accueil francophone since it was created in December 2003.

While we have come a long way in more than 20 years, we are now facing a kind of paradox. On the one hand, the federal government has sent a clear and positive signal by increasing the immigration target for the coming years to 10% by 2027. On the other hand, the objective comes at a time of declining overall immigration levels to Canada. This raises a crucial question: How can we sustainably welcome more francophones if the means to do so aren't there? We welcome the commitment to increasing the target, but it must be accompanied by investments to support the intake, integration and retention of people who are at the heart of our communities. Without it, the objective will remain a paradox, an empty promise.

To illustrate these issues, I will address four themes: immigration levels, the asylum system, the immigration process and the strategies we need to put in place.

First, with regard to immigration levels, the FCFA, the Fédération des communautés francophones et acadienne du Canada, is right to note that the federal government is following through on its commitment. Increasing the percentage targets helps stabilize the number of French-speaking immigrants at approximately 30,000 per year, despite the decrease in the overall target. This is an essential protection to reverse the demographic decline of our communities.

However, make no mistake: Stabilizing the number of francophone newcomers is not enough. An FCFA study showed that we needed a minimum of 12% to get there. With two years to reach the 10% target and several years of delay, we are a long way from achieving our goal.

What's more, the challenge is twofold. Critical programs are already underfunded and geographically limited. Increasing the percentage of the target without increasing resources for recruitment is like expanding a front door without expanding the vestibule. We invite people here without increasing integration capacity.

Second, there is the issue of the asylum system. Adding to the pressure is a new reality: the sharp increase in the number of francophone asylum seekers in our communities, particularly in Manitoba. This is a direct result of recent policy changes elsewhere in the country.

These people often arrive in a state of extreme vulnerability and turn to our organizations, which are on the front line. However, no additional or dedicated funding has been set aside to meet this specific, growing demand. Our intake structures are overwhelmed and forced to do more with the same resources. This jeopardizes the quality of reception services for newcomers.

Third is the immigration process. The journey of immigrants in minority communities, once they are here, is fraught with obstacles. They're facing a dual challenge. First, there is the language challenge. Even though they are francophones, many of them have to do a language upgrade to adapt to our environment. These courses must be funded, not only for learning English, but also for adapting their French to the Canadian professional setting.

Then there's the challenge of integration. If settlement services managed by and for francophones are not better funded, integration takes longer, which leads to discouragement and prolonged dependence. The risk is huge: When newcomers don't find the necessary support within francophone communities, they run the risk of being assimilated and separated from the community, often without realizing it. We do all the preliminary recruitment work and then lose them. It's a failure for them and it's a failure for us.

Fourth, we are proposing strategies and recommendations. In the face of these challenges, urgent, concrete solutions are needed. Programs like Destination Canada need to be fully funded and expanded to reach the vast pool of francophone talent in the world. The target will only be met if we put measures in place to do so.

It is also imperative to allocate direct, stable and adequate funding for francophone settlement services by allocating a specific envelope to respond to the influx of asylum seekers. We are asking that these services be managed by francophone organizations to help francophone immigrants specifically.

Finally, we need to ensure that programs that work well and that give extra points to francophones, such as the express entry system, are protected and made permanent.

In conclusion, the government's commitment is a first step, but to turn numbers into people who integrate and into our communities and thrive, we need to move from ambition to action. Let's put measures in place to achieve our ambitions. Let's invest in our intake structures to ensure not only the future of newcomers, but also the vitality and sustainability of the Canadian francophone community.

Thank you.

The Chair Liberal Julie Dzerowicz

Thank you, Ms. Sacko.

Ms. van der Knaap, you have the floor.

Lysiane van der Knaap Executive Director, Éducation internationale

Good afternoon.

Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for having us. I'm going to speak on behalf of the three people who represent Éducation internationale.

Éducation internationale is a co-operative that represents Quebec's school service centres and school boards, public institutions that offer vocational training in their respective jurisdictions. Our co-operative works with these institutions to attract international students for vocational training.

Our objective today is twofold. On the one hand, we want to make parliamentarians here today aware of vocational training in Quebec, a system that is unique in the country. On the other hand, we have been advocating for greater fairness and consistency in the choices made by Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada, or IRCC, for a little over a year now when it comes to foreign students in Canada.

The Quebec public network of vocational training consists of 174 training centres that offer more than 200 programs in 21 sectors to approximately 130,000 students across Quebec. Vocational training is a pillar of Quebec's education system. It exists to meet the needs of the skilled trades workforce. It consists of short, practical training tailored to labour market needs. We try to match training with employment.

According to data published by Quebec's employment department, 80% of vocational training programs are geared toward trades with a labour shortage. A significant proportion of the occupations most impacted by persistent shortages are directly related to vocational training, including PSWs, machinists and welders, as well as construction trades and cooks.

Over the past few years, vocational training in Quebec has taken in no more than 1% of Canada's foreign students. In 2024, there was a total of 10,000 international students in the public system, which made it a record year. Approximately 3,000 to 4,000 of these students were spread across 138 institutions outside Montreal, representing an average of about 25 students per institution. Compared to other training institutions, such as the University of Toronto, which had 27,000 international students in a single year, these are very small numbers. Although very few of them attend our institutions, international students help us make up cohorts and maintain the training offer for Quebeckers who want to take courses.

After their training, Quebec and international students get jobs that are in high demand in their communities. The placement rate for a number of programs is 100%.

Despite these facts, current immigration rules are stifling the ability of training centres to attract international students. Since November 1, 2024, when an eligibility criterion based on the field of study was imposed, only 55 programs have been eligible for the post-graduation work permit, or PGWP. Before that, there were 142. According to information provided by IRCC, the list could be reduced to 35 programs in early 2026. Of the ineligible programs, more than 40 are geared toward trades with documented labour needs.

IRCC indicates that the restrictive measure for the post-graduation work permit was decided based on available labour market data. However, all university degrees are eligible for the PGWP. It's hard to believe that all university programs have higher placement rates than vocational training programs for professions such as personal support workers and mechanics.

Increased spending on defence and the shipbuilding industry, combined with the three major projects announced by the Carney government for Quebec, is creating significant demand for skilled trades. Without adjustments to immigration policies for vocational training, Canada will have trouble carrying out its strategic projects.

The proof is that, at the end of September 2024, Éducation internationale conducted a survey of vocational training centres to determine the impact of the post-graduation work permit measure on their ability to attract international candidates. Of those surveyed, 44% saw a 50% or more drop in attendance in the 2025 school year compared to the same date the previous year. Twenty training institutions reported having to cancel or postpone 77 cohorts over the course of the school year. In Quebec as a whole, that number is even higher. Respondents told us that a number of programs are weakened by the declining attendance of international students. Some are directly related to investments by the current federal government, such as the surveying and heavy-duty road vehicle mechanics programs.

We are here today to advocate for full recognition of vocational training by the Government of Canada in its immigration choices. We ask that IRCC restore access to post-graduation work permits for vocational training programs that meet actual labour market needs.

A small number of international students arrive and are distributed across more than 150 institutions all over the province. They are essential to maintaining a training offer throughout Quebec. They also meet significant labour needs, particularly to carry out major nation-building projects.

If this is not fixed, thousands of positions will remain vacant.

The Chair Liberal Julie Dzerowicz

Thank you, Ms. van der Knaap.

We'll now go to the first round of questions.

Mr. Davies, please go ahead for six minutes.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Fred Davies Conservative Niagara South, ON

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I was particularly interested in Ms. van der Knaap's comments. I want to pick up on that, but if you don't mind, I'd like to give you a bit of a picture of what's happening in my neck of the woods, in the Niagara area.

As you may know, Niagara College is one of Canada's most well-recognized colleges. One thing I've been hearing over the last couple of months with the changes in the program is that for somebody coming into Canada as an international student, in the past, if they were on a three-year program, for example, they would generally have the ability to get a work permit for a postgrad placement in Canada.

Ms. van der Knaap, I want you to correct me if I am incorrect here, but on the changes the government put in place, let's say you go to university and get a general arts degree in philosophy or anthropology. You have a better chance of getting a work permit coming out of a university than you do out of a trade school. At Niagara College, for example, we have a world-class culinary program, a distillery program, a brewery program and a hotel and hospitality program that services a good portion of the Niagara region. You mentioned that the acceptance of students must also be based on labour market analysis or regional analysis. However, the changes that have taken place, and perhaps you would comment on this, have disproportionately impacted those who are going into trades. Canada really needs these workers, but we're now not giving them an opportunity to work here. Would you agree with that?

3:45 p.m.

Executive Director, Éducation internationale

Lysiane van der Knaap

That is exactly what we presented.

Arts programs are all eligible for a post-graduation work permit, or PGWP, if sanctioned by a degree. Meanwhile, students who come from vocational or trade schools are at a disadvantage and have more trouble getting a PGWP.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Fred Davies Conservative Niagara South, ON

Ms. van der Knaap, when these changes were initiated by the government, how did you or your colleagues respond to that? It was a severe blow to the training programs, including the Blue Seal and Red Seal programs. Canada sorely needs people in certain disciplines in trades, particularly in construction, framing, electrical and plumbing work, and anything in Blue Seal trades. It seems to me that unless changes are made, we're going to lose opportunities with students that we might otherwise bring to Canada for these programs and training. We may not attract them at all. Would you agree with that?

3:50 p.m.

Executive Director, Éducation internationale

Lysiane van der Knaap

We are seeing a significant decline in the attractiveness of vocational training programs, as revealed by the data from our survey. More than 50% of training centres tell us that they have experienced a 50% or more drop in admissions. The impact is real.

Mr. Carette, who comes from a regional vocational training centre in Alma, could perhaps comment on what he sees in his region.

Jérôme Carette Director of Education Services, Adult Sector, Centre de services scolaire du Lac-Saint-Jean, Éducation internationale

The Centre de services scolaire du Lac-Saint-Jean is located in Alma, in Lac-Saint-Jean, about 200 kilometres north of Quebec City. Our vocational training centre offers exactly 15 vocational training programs.

Over the last two years, we've seen a decline in international student admissions. In 2023-24, we had 70 new registrations, whereas in 2024-25, we had 55. This year, we're at 29.

As Ms. van der Knaap mentioned, these aren't astronomical numbers. We are not a very large school services centre, but our reality is the same as everyone else's. Earlier, we were talking about the 174 vocational training centres in the province. This situation affects the entire province.

However, if we look at all 15 of our programs, the placement rates are almost 100%. The decrease in the number of students means that we are simply no longer able to provide the graduates needed to meet labour market needs.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Fred Davies Conservative Niagara South, ON

Thank you for that.

How many students have been affected by the drop in the number of programs that you now provide?

Ms. van der Knaap, do you have those numbers?

3:50 p.m.

Executive Director, Éducation internationale

Lysiane van der Knaap

We don't have the data for this year because we haven't yet been able to record the exact numbers for the entire province. That data will be available later this year.

That said, at Éducation internationale, for example, we have noted a nearly 50% drop in the number of admissions, but the data for this school year is not available for the entire province.

Mr. Carette gave the example of his vocational training centre, where admissions dropped by more than 50%.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Fred Davies Conservative Niagara South, ON

Madam Chair, how much time do I have?

The Chair Liberal Julie Dzerowicz

That's perfect timing. You have zero seconds.

Next we go to Mr. Zuberi for six minutes.

Sameer Zuberi Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses for being here today.

I want to start with you, Ms. Sacko.

You recently testified before the Standing Committee on Official Languages. You also mentioned a number of challenges that students face, including the low capacity of consultants and visa officers in francophone Africa, which leads to high numbers of arbitrary refusals.

What do you recommend to remove those barriers, particularly systemic barriers?

3:55 p.m.

Executive Director, Accueil francophone du Manitoba

Bintou Sacko

When it comes to student visas, you talked about “high numbers” and “systemic barriers”. I think there are some—

Sameer Zuberi Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC

I think you testified at another committee about those challenges.

3:55 p.m.

Executive Director, Accueil francophone du Manitoba

Bintou Sacko

Yes, that was a few years ago.

I recommend that the government conduct checks at embassies, because they process applications from a number of countries, particularly francophone African ones. We should work with the embassies to see if it is possible to provide visas rather than processing visa applications for a number of countries.

In addition, the pool is large enough for recruitment. The most stable francophone countries should be given the power or authority to issue visas to increase the percentage slightly.

Sameer Zuberi Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC

These problems still exist, even though you pointed them out a few years ago. Is that correct?

3:55 p.m.

Executive Director, Accueil francophone du Manitoba

Bintou Sacko

Yes, but there has been a change. The number of visas granted to francophone African countries has increased, but I think there's still work to be done. Some refusals have not been justified so far. Even if the applications are good and well prepared, there are still refusals.

That said, there has been a change since the last time.

Sameer Zuberi Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC

One of the largest investments that Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada is making is in organizations that provide services to newcomers to help them settle.

Can you explain the importance of these services for newcomers, especially francophones?

3:55 p.m.

Executive Director, Accueil francophone du Manitoba

Bintou Sacko

There is a difference between immigration and general recruitment.

Settlement services for francophone communities are part of a very specific vision. Not taking this vision into account means that it gets lost in the overall vision of immigration. Francophones have a responsibility to establish a connection with the community. We're talking about expanding the francophone space. The existing isolation of francophone communities is a factor that increases linguistic insecurity. When a community makes extreme efforts to recruit people in francophone countries to expand the francophone space, sufficient resources must be invested. They are already in the minority, so we need them to help newcomers integrate, overcome language barriers, find a job, quickly get to work and have their credentials recognized. In that respect, there is a major shortfall. The purpose of settlement services is precisely to support these people so that there are fewer mistakes and they are integrated as quickly as possible.

Sameer Zuberi Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC

I imagine that francophones outside Quebec face many more obstacles than anglophone immigrants outside Quebec.

3:55 p.m.

Executive Director, Accueil francophone du Manitoba

Bintou Sacko

Exactly. That's the reality.

Sameer Zuberi Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC

Investments by Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada, or IRCC, are crucial to integrating francophones outside Quebec.