Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Nov. 25th, 2025

[Bintou Sacko]

Exactly. Investments need to be made. We're asking the government to invest in that vision. There is already a plan for francophone immigration. However, it would be even better to fund a francophone immigration program for minority communities.

[Sameer Zuberi, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Julie Dzerowicz]

Thank you, Mr. Zuberi.

Mr. Brunelle‑Duceppe, you have six minutes.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses who are with us today. Let me say that it's a pleasure to welcome someone from my hometown of Alma.

We spoke at length about the drastically lower numbers at vocational training centres across Quebec.

Ms. van der Knaap, could you tell us to what extent the decline in the number of foreign students is affecting the sustainability of some programs?

[Lysiane van der Knaap]

As I outlined, 20 institutions told us that they cancelled or postponed the programs for 77 cohorts. Some have told us about programs offered in vocational training centres that are now vulnerable, including those in mechanics, health, secretarial studies and accounting.

This absolutely has real-world consequences for the centres and their ability to create cohorts or even offer programs.

Mr. Carette can no doubt attest to the vulnerability of some of his programs.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Go ahead, Mr. Carette.

[Jérôme Carette]

As I mentioned earlier, the number of foreign students has decreased by more than 50% over two years. Last year, they represented barely 14% of all our organization's registered students. These are not entire cohorts of foreign students, but they are crucial. Not only does the decrease limit the number of graduates we can train to provide a workforce to our regional businesses, but it also, in some cases, limits our ability to offer certain programs. I wouldn't say these programs are compromised, but they're about to be. I'm thinking in particular of our machining program. Last year, almost a quarter of the students in the program were from overseas.

Having these students in our programs allows us to issue diplomas and provide a workforce. However, without them, we might not be able to offer some programs to our cohorts for financial reasons. This year, as a result of the decline in the number of international students, some of our programs, including machining, pharmacy technical assistance and graphic design, are on shakier ground.

Sometimes the ninth or tenth international student is the tipping point for a program. Otherwise, because of the funding criteria, we would be running the program at a loss. We could do it for a year, but not in the long term. It's not a viable model.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

I think it's great that you're at the committee. In Quebec, when we talk about foreign students, we often talk about university or college students. We rarely talk about vocational students.

I would like you to tell the committee to what extent your training programs are connected to the regional economic ecosystem. That would help the analyst fully understand the connection you have with your community and the regional economy.

[Jérôme Carette]

I could give you some overall statistics, but I could also give you some concrete regional examples.

Based on recent studies by the Institut de la statistique du Québec, nearly 80% of job vacancies in the labour market relate to vocational training. As I mentioned earlier, placement rates are virtually 100% in all our programs. We are struggling to meet the needs of businesses, regardless of the program.

I'll give you a few concrete examples. Among the 15 training programs we offer, there is one that leads to becoming a personal support worker. At the last meetings we had with representatives of the Centre intégré universitaire de santé et de services sociaux du Saguenay—Lac-Saint-Jean, the CIUSS, we were told flat-out that if, tomorrow morning, we were able to provide them all our graduates at once, they would need twice as many. That's a very concrete example.

PSW training lasts 705 hours and leads to a diploma of vocational studies, or DVS. However, since the training lasts less than 900 hours, the program does not lead to a post-graduation work permit. As a result, international students who want to continue their education by working at an organization have to go through a very long bureaucratic process to get a closed work permit. That's also a very concrete example. The 900‑hour cut-off has a direct impact on our ability to provide labour to service businesses in our region.

I could switch sectors and talk to you about welding. Proco, a regional flagship with sales of $170 million, employs about 100 welders. There again, our capacity to provide labour is insufficient.

In recent years, restrictions have been imposed on post-graduation work permits. In welding, open work permits for spouses were impacted. The option still exists for the spouses of master's and doctoral students, but not for the spouses of DVS students.

Again, this is a hurdle, and it explains the decline in the number of foreign students enrolled in our programs. It also greatly reduces our ability to supply qualified welders to regional companies like Proco.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Those decisions were made based on reception capacity.

How do you welcome these international students? Are they accepted in the community? Is it easy for you to integrate them, and to properly welcome them? Just a short answer, please.

[Jérôme Carette]

As Ms. Sacko said—

[The Chair, Liberal, Julie Dzerowicz]

Just a short answer, please.

[Jérôme Carette]

If you want it to work, for international students, organizations and the community, you have to offer services.

That's the choice we made as an organization. We're a small school service centre, so we worked with the neighbouring school service centre, Pays-des-Bleuets, to set up a support structure.

We don't just enrol international students. We support them before they arrive. Sometimes we greet them at the airport. We also help them find housing, successfully integrate into their community and feel included in our organization.

It really makes a difference. I say this because we're not talking about huge numbers for small school service centres.

[The Chair, Liberal, Julie Dzerowicz]

Thank you, Mr. Carette.

Thank you, Mr. Brunelle‑Duceppe.

We will now begin the second round.

We'll start with Mr. Ma for five minutes.

[Michael Ma, Conservative, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

My questions will be addressed to Ms. van der Knaap.

You gave testimony to Quebec's Committee on Citizen Relations in October. You were advocating for the full recognition of vocational training as a core driver of economic, regional and linguistic development.

Can you walk me through your recommendation on how to tie international student admissions to the needs of regions and specific skilled trades?

[Lysiane van der Knaap]

Actually, we'd like to make the same recommendation today that we did to the Commission des relations avec les citoyens, in Quebec. We want vocational training to be recognized as an education sector that is just as valuable as higher education. It is true that we need engineers and doctors in Quebec and in Canada, but a hospital can't operate without practical nurses and orderlies. You can't operate a plant or build icebreakers without mechanics, machinists and welders. Vocational training is an essential level of education and training.

Vocational training also helps the labour market meet its needs. As I said, we're trying to create a perfect match between training and employment. If the need isn't there for certain sectors, we don't offer programs in those sectors. In other words, we teach the skills needed. We want to train enough people to meet the needs in the regions.

The 174 vocational training centres in Quebec offer programs, based on a card system that match the labour needs in their respective regions. There's no training in mining trades offered in Montreal, for example, but there is in Abitibi, in the Côte-Nord region and in Chibougamau, because that's where the mines are.

Furthermore, vocational training centres use international students to fill cohorts. Depending on the year, there can be around 130,000 vocational students in Quebec, and between 6,000 and 7,000 of them come from abroad. However, that's not enough to meet labour market needs. Targets were set to significantly increase the number of students in vocational training, but they were very hard to meet without international students. Given the insufficient efforts from the Quebec government to attract Quebec students to professional training programs, we turned to international students to fill the cohorts. Also, as my colleague Mr. Carette said, placement rates are very high. That's true in Lac-Saint-Jean, and it's also true in other regions.

I'd like to highlight a few labour market needs related to skills training. The construction industry will need 16,000 new workers a year until 2030 to reach 80,000 workers. In the shipbuilding industry, located along the St. Lawrence River, 2,000 jobs will be created to build icebreakers. We're talking about welders and industrial mechanics, among others. For large-scale projects, Hydro-Québec, will need 35,000 workers by 2035. Those are a lot of trades that fall under vocational training.

Mr. Carette also talked about orderlies. In Quebec, there is a shortage of 6,000 orderlies. We need to allow international students to come train and work here. There's also the aerospace sector, around Montreal, where 40,000 positions will need to be filled over the next 10 years. I could go on.

Vocational training is necessary. What we are asking today, just as we did before the parliamentary committee in Quebec City, is for the strategic role of vocational training to be recognized. We are also concerned about the capacity of immigrants to work in French, but once they've completed their training, they learn French and are able to work anywhere in French.

[Michael Ma, Conservative, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Thank you.

To follow that line, in your testimony, you also noted the discrepancy of postgraduate work permit allocations with all university degrees, which you also just mentioned you wanted to equalize.

Do you believe our immigration system, especially as it relates to international student permit allocations, should be more closely tied with our national and provincial labour market needs?

[Lysiane van der Knaap]

That's what we think, and the data supports it. You just have to look at the government-documented labour market needs to see that they're in skills training sectors.

[The Chair, Liberal, Julie Dzerowicz]

Ms. Zahid, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Salma Zahid, Liberal, Scarborough Centre—Don Valley East, ON]

Thank you, Chair, and thanks to the witnesses for appearing before the committee today.

My first question is for Madam Sacko.

The federal government has set ambitious targets for francophone immigration outside of Quebec. Last year, we exceeded our targets. As a result, we have now set even more ambitious targets for the years to come.

Can you tell us how your organization views the importance of focusing on francophone immigration outside of Quebec and what these targets mean for protecting the francophone communities across Canada?

[Bintou Sacko]

Thank you very much for the question.

Indeed, these targets are significant, because it's about the vitality of the francophone community outside Quebec.

I talked earlier about linguistic insecurity, and the fact that these targets were set precisely to address this declining demographic. The community is coming together, building a lot of capacity to ensure those joining our communities are very welcome and supported, so they can integrate and stay. When they don't stay, it feels like a waste of efforts.

Obviously, we believe that if targets are increased, resources also need to be increased. It's important for the government to have an overview of francophone immigration, including francophone international students, economic immigrants, francophone refugees, asylum seekers, as I mentioned earlier, and temporary workers outside Quebec. Enough money has to be invested to ensure these immigrants are well supported and integrated into the community. It's important. The targets won't be enough for the francophone community to reach the 12% ratio, but it's still a significant step forward for the francophone communities outside Quebec.

[Salma Zahid, Liberal, Scarborough Centre—Don Valley East, ON]

Thank you, Madam Sacko.

The next question is also for you.

In your view, what are the most significant barriers that the francophone newcomers face when they arrive in Canada, whether it is the credential recognition, the language instruction or the pathway navigation? How do you think federal policies should be aligned to address the barriers the francophone community faces?

[Bintou Sacko]

Regarding the barriers you just talked about, I think there needs to be some consultations. Many can be held with the community itself, given that the francophone immigration program is part of a strategy, which means we should look at that strategy. A lot of studies have been done, and advisory committees have worked on this issue. The government could invest in language training, which is very important for our minority communities.

As you said, prior learning recognition is also consequential. That means we have to work with provinces and trades, so people can join the workforce or get a job as quickly as possible. We also need to look at the studies done on this issue and see where they recommend to invest the most to help francophone immigrants in those communities.

[The Chair, Liberal, Julie Dzerowicz]

Thank you, Ms. Zahid.

Next, we have Mr. Brunelle‑Duceppe.

You have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Ms. van der Knaap, I'll do you a favour.

Let's say tomorrow morning, I appoint you Minister of Immigration for the federal government with all the powers that come with that position. What would be the first changes you would make? What measures would you change to ensure Éducation internationale is better off tomorrow morning? You only have 24 hours to make changes.