Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Oct. 17th, 2006

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

Committee members, before we begin our orders of the day I just want to say that I made a procedural error a couple of meetings before our recess. Madam Neville called a point of order, and I should have dropped everything and dealt with that point of order. Instead I allowed Mr. Bruinooge to continue his report to Madam Crowder. It was a procedural error, and I apologize to Madam Neville and to the committee for that oversight. It's my understanding this will possibly come forward during the latter half of the next meeting, just so the committee is aware of that.

Mr. Lemay, I understand you're going to introduce some of our guests today.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Mr. Chairman, allow me to take a few moments of your time.

For Quebec, and particularly for the Atikamekw Nation, this is a very important moment. I would like to introduce the new Grand Chief and President of the Atikamekw Nation, Ms. Eva Ottawa, who is with us here this morning. She is accompanied by Mr. Paul-Émile Ottawa, Chief of Manawan, and Mr. Jean-Pierre Mattawa, Chief of Opitciwan. Others who should soon arrive -- if they're not already here -- are Mr. François Neashit, Chief of Wemotaci, as well as Ms. Sandrine Brindejonc, Communications Coordinator with the Atikamekw Nation Council. They will attend part of our meeting here this morning. As far as I'm concerned, it is a great honour to have them with us today.

We extend our congratulations to Ms. Ottawa and wish her the best of luck in her new job. She can certainly count on us and the Committee to help her carry out her program.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

Thank you, Mr. Lemay.

This morning we have witnesses from the Assemblée des Premières Nations du Québec et du Labrador and its board of education. I see that Chief Picard is not here right now, but we have, from the First Nations Education Council, Lise Bastien, director, and Gilbert Whiteduck, senior education adviser. From the Cree School Board, we have Gordon Blackned, president. From the University of Quebec in Abitibi-Témiscamingue, Edith Cloutier, chairman of the board, and Johanne Jean, president.

Welcome to this committee.

My understanding is that we're going to begin with Ms. Bastien, as the director. Are you going to do the presentation? We'll have ten-minute presentations from each group and then we'll have questions from the board.

[Lise Bastien, Director, First Nations Education Council, Assemblée des Premières Nations du Québec et du Labrador and its Board of Education]

Thank you for inviting us to appear. Allow me to apologize for the absence of our Regional Chief, Ghislain Picard. He is very busy these days organizing the First Nations Socio-economic Forum, as most of you already know. However, I would like to pass on a brief message from Ghislain with respect to post-secondary education for First Nations students.

Ghislain believes it is important to make you aware of a devastating fact. First Nations still lag far behind every other segment of the Canadian population with respect to education. In 2004, the Auditor General reported a gap of 28 years. That gap continues to widen and has repercussions on access to employment and socio-economic conditions in general.

With respect to post-secondary education specifically, all the studies show that the higher a person's level of education, the better his or her chances of obtaining meaningful employment. There is no doubt about that. However, opportunities are very limited for the vast majority of First Nations people, since access to post-secondary education remains extremely limited. And this has been the case for many years now. Public figures will never say that First Nations people attending a post-secondary institution face the challenge of successfully completing their education in an environment that is structured, designed and developed by and for a dominant culture. As a result, the obstacles facing First Nations people who attend post-secondary institutions are numerous.

I would just like to conclude Ghislain's message by saying that First Nations are absolutely convinced that there are solutions. We have particular expertise when it comes to education for First Nations people. It would be unfair to design or develop solutions without involving us, because this has a direct impact on our future. It is likely that having one or more post-secondary institutions that are designed for and by First Nations would be a viable solution, in terms of allowing young First Nations people to receive a better education.

That is basically the message that Ghislain wanted to convey to you today. Of course, I gave you only a summary, but I believe I have conveyed the essential points of his message.

Very quickly, I would like to introduce the First Nations Education Council. As an organization, we have been around for more than 21 years and we represent some 22 communities across Quebec, in all areas of education. We have proven ourselves when it comes to managing and administering programs. Of course, our successes are certainly not the kind of thing that would likely make the headlines these days. I think we should be considering what can be done to turn things around as regards the messages conveyed by the media about the successes or particular situation of the First Nations.

These days, we hear a lot about cases of mismanagement or administrative problems, when in actual fact, there are tremendous successes out there and people capable of properly managing, administering and developing programs for First Nations people.

An organization such as ours, which represents 22 communities, has developed expertise over the years which is just as valuable as that of certain departments. It's important that this be recognized. As well, the studies we have conducted on the funding of post-secondary programs should be considered valid.

I will now turn it over to my colleague, Gilbert, who is our senior education advisor and has been working in the educational field for more than 30 years.

[Gilbert Whiteduck, Senior Education Advisor, First Nations Education Council, Assemblée des Premières Nations du Québec et du Labrador and its Board of Education]

Good morning, and thank you for this opportunity to speak to you at this committee. I think it's a unique opportunity for the first nations in Quebec, who unfortunately don't often get this opportunity

I'm aware that you are aware of a lot of the details in regard to the post-secondary program. As you know, the program is divided in two. One part is student support and the other part is the institutional support--very important.

Prior to the 1990s, the student support program was somewhat of an open envelope that came to support all students who were applying. At around that point in time, the program got frozen, got capped. There was only going to be a 2% increase per year, even though the demographics would demonstrate that our population was rising very quickly. We were being somewhat more successful within our schools, having therefore more graduates, but this funding availability was just not there for a lot of our students.

More importantly, the program--and the policy that overlooks the program and that determines the level of funding--was not keeping pace with the realities of society, such as the rising cost of tuition, as you well know, and just the rising cost of living expenses and technology.

So the program has not kept pace, and our students are having a difficult time. A number of students often decide not to go because they just don't have the resources. Knowing the poverty that exists in our communities, certainly the families cannot support their children, even though there's hope here for them to be successful in the post-secondary program.

I want to take a minute to point out a particular situation in Quebec. Vocational training in Quebec is given at the high school level, unlike most other regions of Canada, where it's given at the post-secondary level. Therefore, first nations communities and students in Quebec cannot access the post-secondary program in order to get vocational training. There are limitations, and we're hoping that at one point this is going to be addressed. Obviously a lot of our students are not going to be going to university, but there are many opportunities in the trades, so this has to be examined very carefully.

We note in our statistics a decline in student enrolment at the post-secondary level, both college and university, over the past five or six years. We're seeing the trend going down. We believe it's tied to the policy and to the lack of support for the funding that's required. We also believe it's tied to student support very early at the high school level, ensuring that students will be well prepared, will have the academic background, will have guidance counselling, and, when they're leaving the community, or even going to a first nations post-secondary institution, will again have support.

That is critical. The gap remains--we've had a look at it in our region--at anywhere from 15% to 25%. It varies from one community to another. We see that as unacceptable. We feel that the policy should support the students a lot more and create positive encouragement for them to go on.

[Lise Bastien]

I would just like to conclude by proposing a solution that goes beyond simply increasing funding under the current student support policy. Consideration must be given to the possibility of allowing the First Nations to develop their own post-secondary services and institutions.

No people, no nation can develop properly if it does not have its own institutions. I believe you all understand that if we cannot develop our own schools and our own places of worship, we will never have a healthy culture that can develop with pride.

We believe a first step in that direction would be the creation of a post-secondary college or institution that would be much more meaningful for young people who have arrived at that level. For example, colleges give a course on the role of government and citizenry, but nobody ever says anything about the role of Aboriginal government, or even the band council. Nor is there any discussion of the role of First Nations people. The content simply is not meaningful to our young people.

We firmly believe that a college would be an alternative for young Aboriginal students who have completed their secondary level studies wanting to attend college, and who often drop out at that point. People talk a lot about high school dropouts, but they never talk about college dropouts. There are more than people think. Indeed, this phenomenon can be seen in all societies, because this is a critical stage in life. It is at this stage in one's life that one begins to forge one's own ideas.

If an educational institution fosters the development of young leaders who respect their own culture -- not necessarily political leaders -- they are then better able to play an active and meaningful role within society.

One of the solutions we feel very strongly about is the establishment of a college whose design and content would be developed by First Nations, allowing our young people to be proud to be Aboriginal. One of the biggest challenges we're facing these days is conveying a sense of pride to our young people. Children 5, 6 or 7 years of age who hear negative messages about First Nations people often instinctively want to hide their identity.

Providing First Nations with adequate funding to develop their own institutions would very much foster the active participation of our young people in society.

In conclusion, I just want to mention that I attended an Aboriginal college more than 30 years ago. That college closed five years later. At least 50 young people used to graduate every year. That is an aberration. If this college were still operating in Quebec, we would now have at least 30 times 50 youths with a college level diploma. I can tell you the socio-economic circumstances of our communities would be different. Unfortunately, that was a bad political decision. I very much hope that we can reverse that situation.

I will turn it over to Gilbert for a few last words, so that he can go over the comprehensive solutions we are seeking.

[Gilbert Whiteduck]

For a number of years now, First Nations have been making many recommendations, and a lot of studies have been carried out. It is now time to stop studying the issue and take action, by developing specific programs. The First Nations are always ready to work with Indian Affairs to develop viable solutions. People often talk about transparency and accountability. But we are prepared to do it. We want to show that we can manage the funding better, but we have to give our young people opportunities. There are young people in these communities who are waiting. We can change their prospects within our communities. We have to give our young people hope, because they don't have much these days.

My commitment to education in the communities over the last 30 years has allowed me to witness a great deal of loss. We can deplore that, but we should really be thinking of the young people who no longer have any hope, and yet would like to make a positive contribution to Canadian society in their own culture. We need some help over the next 10 to 15 years. It's time to stop talking and start acting.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

Mr. Blackned, please.

[Gordon Blackned, Chairman, Cree School Board]

I'd like to just say briefly that I got lost getting over here. I've never been in these buildings before, not even for a tour.

In any case, I guess the issue I've been asked to participate in here is in relation to the presentation to be made by Madame Édith Cloutier from the Université du Québec en Abitibi-Témiscamingue on the intervention strategy for teaching, research, among the first nations populations.

I'm the current chairman of the Cree School Board. I was elected in August this year, and I represent the Cree Nation of Quebec. You've probably heard a lot about those people. Anyway, my presence here is to give support to Madame Cloutier's presentation in terms of the aspect of providing post-secondary education much closer to the Cree territory.

Presently, the Cree School Board sponsors anywhere from 350 to 400 post-secondary students scattered throughout the province of Quebec, and mostly in the province of Ontario, but we also have students attending different colleges and universities throughout the rest of the country, as far away as B.C.

The main issue that I would like to put forth in terms of supporting the initiative taken by the Université du Québec en Abitibi-Témiscamingue is that our students in the last several years have shown little success in terms of finishing their degree programs or their diploma programs at whatever post-secondary institution they may be attending, and that mainly has to do with the culture shock, the distance away from home. Our students finish high school in their own communities, and once they leave their home communities they're subjected to a whole new environment, a totally strange environment where they are pretty much expected to succeed, and normally this has not really been the case. The establishment of institutions much closer to the Cree territory would be a solution for ensuring that our students do succeed in post-secondary programs.

The Cree Nation of Quebec has evolved quite rapidly over the last 30 years. We have our own Cree School Board, we have our own Cree Health Board, our own Cree companies, Cree businesses, that sort of thing. In February 2002 we signed a new relationship agreement with the Province of Quebec as well as with Hydro-Québec for additional hydroelectric development. Within that agreement, we received a lot of benefits that require us to train, to educate, and to eventually bring about different jobs, or autonomy within the Cree Nation.

Now that calls for a number of positions that need to be created throughout the Cree territory as the communities evolve and the economic development of each of those communities develops. Presently in our school board we have close to, I would say, 1,000 employees. The majority of those employees are in the lower level management areas and also in the support staff area.

We have teachers who have graduated from our teacher training program, which is enshrined into the James Bay and Northern Quebec Agreement under section 16. Over those years we have developed teachers up to the elementary level. Just recently we included a teacher training program component to bring up secondary level teachers from our elementary sectors.

Now, we still have a large number of non-native teachers who need to be replaced by our own people. We have a lot of nurses and doctors who need to be replaced, eventually, by Cree people.

The entities I'm talking about incur a lot of expenses in providing housing and other benefits for non-native people who come from the south. Even that doesn't really keep them in the communities for a long time. They stay for an average of four years, and then they eventually leave. We have a question of consistency there, and we feel that we need to provide more post-secondary programs much closer to our Cree territory to ensure success.

Our children at a young age start to get familiar with some of the southern communities that are close to the Cree territory. They participate in a lot of educational activities and sporting activities. The new relationship agreement that was signed between the Cree Nation and the Province of Quebec has really triggered much closer relationships with the francophone communities of Val d'or, Amos, Rouyn-Noranda, and the surrounding region.

I think the Cree School Board needs to look at providing much closer post-secondary education within that domain to ensure that the necessary positions can be filled by our own Cree people, instead of constantly having people from the south come in for several years and then leave without really making a long-term commitment to help in the development of our Cree community.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

I don't like to interrupt you, but we need to make sure we have time for questions for the committee. If we could move on to Madame Cloutier, I'd appreciate it. Thank you.

[Edith Cloutier, Chairman of the Board, University of Quebec in Abitibi-Témiscamingue]

Meegwetch, Mr. Blackned. Wachya. Kwe. Good morning.

Members of the Committee, chiefs, colleagues, my name is Edith Cloutier. I am Chairman of the Board of Directors of the Université du Québec en Abitibi-Témiscamingue and Executive Director of the Val d'Or Native Friendship Centre. I am a proud Anishinabe from the Anishinabe Aki territory. I am very pleased to be part of this panel today and want to thank you for giving me this opportunity to speak.

I would like to introduce the rector of University of Quebec in Abitibi-Témiscamingue, Mrs. Johanne Jean, who is in charge of the youngest university in the network of the University of Quebec. This institution primarily serves students in Abitibi-Témiscamingue and northern regions of Quebec.

Like all Canadian universities, UQAT offers a number of programs that enjoy an excellent reputation in other regions. It also employs 100 instructors and researchers, and serves a student population of 2,400, 200 of whom are aboriginal students. UQAT has worked with aboriginal people for the past 25 years. You heard from Mr. Blackned about some of the work that's been done with the Cree Nation. The aboriginal people have chosen the university as a partner in training their human resources.

We offer programs leading to certificates and bachelor's degrees in management, early childhood education, primary and secondary school teaching, and social work. Our training programs are delivered both in communities and at our aboriginal campus in Val d'Or, in both English and French, based on the language spoken by the people from the communities as a second language, of course. To date, UQAT has granted 153 diplomas to Inuit, Cree, and Anishnabe Algonquin people.

I am going to continue in French, because that is my current reality.

We are honoured to have been invited to this forum to share our expertise regarding the challenges -- and we heard the representatives of the Assembly of First Nations -- involved in providing post-secondary training for Inuit and First Nations students.

Before discussing our approach and way of doing things, we would like to look at the profile of two students and draw a parallel between them. One is a non-Aboriginal student and the other, an Aboriginal student, both of whom are studying on the campus.

The first student we will call Louise Tremblay, and she is 22 years old. She is studying for a Bachelor's degree in early childhood education and primary school teaching. She has completed her college studies and is now in her second term at university. Today, she finished her last class at 4:00 p.m. She leaves the campus to go home to the apartment she shares with a flat mate. As she is running a nice hot bath to relax in, she turns on her computer to check her e-mail. Of course, a tasty dinner is simmering on the stove and she will need only two short hours to complete the work that has to be handed in the next day. Louise should have time to go out that evening to meet up with other students at the campus bistro.

The second student, whom we will call Bella Papatie, is 33 years old. She also finishes her classes and learning workshops at 4:00 p.m. She, too, is studying for a Bachelor's degree in early childhood education and primary school teaching, in a program whose curriculum has been adapted to First Nations culture. Bella worked in the daycare centre in her community of Kitcisakik, a village about 100 kilometres from Val d'Or, in the Laverendrye Wild Life Reserve. She dreams of one day teaching in a primary school in her community and wants to be legally qualified for that. Who knows? One day, she may go and teach in another community or in the city, when her children leave the reserve and enroll at a CEGEP. Her mother tongue is Algonquin. She learned French in primary school and it is more difficult for her to write in her second language than it is for the regular students. When she finishes her last class, Bella cannot go home to Kitcisakik immediately. She doesn't get to take a hot bath, or to turn her computer on: in her community, there is no running water, and no electricity. Everyone uses a small generator, and given the cost of fuel, it can be operated only a few hours each evening. Grandma puts a tasty dinner on to simmer on the wood stove, and looks after the children while waiting for Bella to come home. The house is small and is home to a family of 14 people: parents, children, grandparents and an elderly uncle. The fact that there are people everywhere means that Bella has no place where she can focus on her school work.

However, the Université du Québec en Abitibi-Témiscamingue has provided assistance for Bella, as part of its comprehensive project to ensure that its Aboriginal students succeed. Bella and her colleagues stay on campus after their last class ends. They meet with a teaching assistant who provides guidance for them in their learning and helps them with their work. They have access to documents translated into English, if they come from a community where the second language is English.

In addition, a psycho-social assistant familiar with Aboriginal culture and practices is available to help them, if they need it. The student life advisor refers her to the Native Friendship Centre for any services she or her family may require.

As for the teachers, they have agreed to take on several extra hours of work in order to provide personal assistance to the First Nations group. Thus the university guarantees that Bella will be able to complete her program successfully, and that she will be able to use her diploma to teach in Aboriginal communities or in any school board of her choice.

At about 6:00 p.m., Bella will be able to set off for Kitcisakik, knowing that she has completed the work and studies that her timetable requires. The evening will be devoted to her family and her community, for whom she is a role model.

Louise and Bella's parents were born in the late 1940s. Louise's parents were born in Val d'Or in the hospital, Bella's in the forest. In the early 1960s, Louise's parents' society experienced tremendous upheaval, later known as the quiet revolution. Louise's mother had her future planned for her. She would complete and graduate from grade 12 and become a school teacher or a nurse. Her father, in spite of his talent, would go to work in the mine.

Then the government changed how things worked and opened the doors of knowledge to them. Secondary education was offered throughout Quebec. A network of CÉGEPs was established, and with it the extensive Université du Québec network. Louise's parents became a doctor and an engineer. Quebec had equipped itself with the most formidable tool for development by ensuring that a large majority of their population would be educated.

Unfortunately--and it is not for us to judge the people who wrote the history of Canada--the aboriginal people received different treatment. Bella's parents did not have access to primary school until it was decided that all the children would be taken away from their parents to be educated, and more importantly, to try to assimilate them into the dominant culture. The residential schools established for them were a failure, and the first nations are still suffering the consequences. Everything has to be rebuilt, and time is running out.

I think my time is also running out, so I'll jump to the conclusion, because I would like Madame Jean to conclude this.

On the first nations pavilion of UQAT, I agreed to chair the board of directors because I believe this institution is a partner with first nations, so that the short-, medium-, and long-term vision meets the vision of first nations that this institution will be controlled by and for first nations. It is in that vision and in that future perspective that we see this opportunity for our people to take over our own institutions and have educated first nations people take over in the future for us first nations people.

I would like to ask Madame Jean to conclude this.

Meegwetch.

[Johanne Jean, President, University of Quebec in Abitibi-Témiscamingue]

Thank you very much for inviting me. I will be brief.

I would like to draw a parallel with what Edith has just said. The project undertaken at the Université du Québec en Abitibi-Témiscamingue takes us back to the beginning of the Quiet Revolution. In the 1960s, the Université du Québec network was established in Quebec. Its purpose was to increase graduation rates and the level of education among Francophone Quebeckers. Institutions were created all across Quebec and the network was expanded, making university training accessible to as many people as possible in Quebec.

The UQAT will celebrate its 25th anniversary in 2008. We have met some of our goals, but some have yet to be attained. During the Quiet Revolution of Quebec, we created this network and began by training our own teachers. After that, we trained our own social workers, our own psycho-educators, our own managers, and our own nurses. Several years later, the Université du Québec en Abitibi-Témiscamingue trained engineers and professional foresters. We began a second phase when we introduced Master's and Ph.D. level training.

In Abitibi-Témiscamingue, when the Université du Québec network was first created, we had to call on French cooperants because there were not enough university professors in Quebec. So we brought people from France to Abitibi-Témiscamingue. Many of them still work with us.

I'm trying to draw a parallel here with the project to develop a First Nations Pavilion at the Université du Québec en Abitibi-Témiscamingue -- something we would like to develop in cooperation with the First Nations, with a view to raising their level of education.

Ms. Bastien referred earlier to the high-school dropout rate. In that connection, it is important to introduce Aboriginal role models and properly trained teachers into First Nations communities. These are First Nations people who will subsequently practice their profession in their own community and will serve as role models. Only then will we be able to break the vicious cycle and ensure that after two or three decades, there will be enough Aboriginal teachers, graduates and professionals.

One very important dimension of this project -- and Edith referred to it earlier -- is the possibility for First Nations to take control. We want to be sure we have Aboriginal staff and that we can train them, because some Aboriginal teachers go away to get their diploma but come back home later to practice their profession.

As we did with the Université du Québec en Abitibi-Témiscamingue, we want to ensure that after two or three decades, the First Nations will be in a position to take over all of these institutions, including those providing university training.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

We'll start the questioning with the Liberal side. Madam Neville.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

I want to thank all of you very much for coming here this morning. The presentations were certainly fulsome.

I particularly want to thank you, Ms. Cloutier, for your portrayal of the differences between an aboriginal and a non-aboriginal student, and the challenges they have.

I'm interested in the whole concept of a post-secondary first nations institution, and I appreciate what the university is doing. Do you have a model in mind of what you would like to create in Quebec? Have you begun discussions with the Quebec government? Have you begun discussions with the federal government? What are the jurisdictional challenges you see in making something happen?

[Lise Bastien]

First of all, we have a project on the table, and it's pretty well developed. We are giving a certificate that we developed ourselves in first nations leadership. We developed the whole concept, and we have an agreement with Saint Paul University.

The project is with a post-secondary institution. This means we would like to have the college and some services in the university. It might be a certificate or a micro-program. We also have a technology program of 15 credits that we give with Montreal University.

This institution will, first of all, give college. I think it's important to build this. We have the project; everything is there. We are working with two colleges: Dawson, and maybe also Abitibi-Témiscamingue. Because we have French and English in Quebec, we need to deal with two institutions. So everything is there.

As for jurisdiction, we are in negotiations with the college, NAQ, the province, and the federal government. At the beginning, we need accreditation by a college. But we hope that within ten years we're going to have full jurisdiction over the institution. They know about this, and they are really open.

So I think everything is there. We will be ready to start in September 2008. We are in negotiations on the budget.

We want to start with small groups. It would be impossible to start a project like this, delivering quality education, with a big group of students. Also, we want to keep the standards high. It is important for us to send the message to our first nations people that we deserve high-quality education, and that we have the capacity to cope with it.

Over the past years, we have to blame ourselves and post-secondary institutions for giving low-quality services. They were giving a certificate or diploma, but the students who went through these institutions didn't have the same capacity at the end as the other groups. So they were building a baccalaureate with a lower quality.

These people who come back and work in our communities are giving poor-quality services. I think it's important to send the message that we are not inferior, that we are able to have quality services. We have good people in our community. Gilbert mentioned potential. We want to work with students who have potential. We want to build on that. Maybe we'll start with a small group of 20 or 40 students for the first year. It doesn't matter. It might cost a bit more at the beginning, but after five years I'm sure the message will cross the communities and the students will be proud to attend this first nations institution.

So that's it. I hope I answered your question.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Thank you.

Do I have time, Mr. Chairman?

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

Yes, you have a couple of minutes.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

I'm interested in knowing what your discussions are with the Quebec and federal governments, and what the jurisdictional challenges are for you.

[Gilbert Whiteduck]

In our case, as indicated, we see the first step as being a partnership with existing CÉGEPs in Quebec. While we're developing our capacity to manage a college, we are going to begin dialogue with the Quebec government to have our institution fully recognized. We know there are a number of steps to make that happen.

In regard to the federal government, there hasn't been a lot of interest in engaging in this, even in regard to providing some preliminary money. Only a little bit of money has been put forward, which is unfortunate, because we've produced what we think is the best thinking we have on this to move it forward; here is a fine example of a kind of collaboration that can produce results if given the opportunity.

I have one comment in regard to what Lise was indicating. McGill University, for example, for a number of years has been providing a teacher training program. It's a four-year B.Ed. with all the same credits, except that if you go through the native program and you graduate, your certification only allows you to teach first nations students. The Quebec government does not recognize that same diploma with the same credits because it's a first nations program. It makes no sense. These programs, delivered for the most part in the community, cost big dollars to deliver, yet at the end of the day the student is limited to teaching first nations students or to teaching on reserve. There's something wrong with that. That's the kind of thing we're hoping to correct and get to the bottom of.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

Thank you.

We go to the Bloc. Monsieur Lemay is next.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you.

I learn something new every day. I wouldn't say that I'm stunned by what you have told us, Mr. Whiteduck, but I am surprised. I have been carefully reading the brief you tabled with the Committee. There is one thing I would like you to clarify on page 7.

First Nations have special needs when it comes to education. Band management, band administration […]

You mentioned all the criteria, which I see as being critical. As part of the project you are currently developing, do you believe you could provide training that would be geared to the needs of First Nations people? If need be, could you begin to do that in the coming months, over the coming year, by the end of 2008, or prior to that?

[Lise Bastien]

The project is actually scheduled to begin in September 2008. The job of adapting course material should begin very soon, in either December or January. We will be looking at content. In terms of band management and administration, the economy, languages and culture, it is entirely possible to adapt the course material. We have a very good grasp of the content.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

I have a specific question. I was wondering whether I should ask it, but I have decided that I will. You are planning to teach courses in French in Abitibi-Témiscamingue if you are able to reach an appropriate agreement with the Abitibi-Témiscamingue CEGEP. So, we're talking about one region. The courses in English would be given at Dawson College -- and heaven knows we've heard a lot about Dawson College in recent weeks -- in the heart of Montreal. I'd like to get additional details about that.

[Lise Bastien]

I could send you all the material about the project. We are currently looking for a place to teach the courses. We are not required to use the premises of the two CEGEPs working with us, who will be checking to see that we meet the standards and giving us the appropriate accreditation, among other things.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

I understand. So, you will sign an agreement with the Abitibi-Témiscamingue CEGEP or Dawson College, but the courses could actually be taught in Kanesatake or Kanahwake, for example.