Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Oct. 17th, 2006

[Lise Bastien]

That's correct.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

I understand now.

[Lise Bastien]

They will be taught in the same place, both in English and French.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

It would certainly be inappropriate for me not to ask a question about the Université du Québec. The other Committee members and myself would like to get more information about this. My question will be along the same lines as the one Ms. Neville asked.

You have a project called the First Nations Pavilion. What is the current status of negotiations with the federal and provincial governments with respect to implementing that project? I imagine this is something new. Can you give us additional details in that regard?

[Edith Cloutier]

The important feature of this project is that it will have a unifying effect. By that I mean that the project reflects a desire on the part of both the Aboriginal and non-Aboriginal communities. It has been in discussion for four years now. Everyone taking part in those discussions is well aware of the project, at both the provincial and federal levels.

Last week, I met with the Quebec Minister of Education. For the time being, the discussions revolve around the First Nations Socio-economic Forum which will be held next week. Quebec has pledged to fund 50% of the construction costs of a building that will cost some $8 million. The non-Aboriginal community has raised $1.5 million. Of that amount, a half-million dollars will go to the construction per se, and the other million dollars will be used for development and research.

So, the ball is now in the federal court. For now, people at Indian Affairs are saying they cannot fund 50% of the construction costs of the pavilion. In addition, $1.2 million is needed to maintain services that have already been developed and which, in most cases, involve Aboriginal staff.

In our discussions with him last week, Mr. Fournier pledged to invest $350,000 this year in support of the service offer. In this case as well, we have gone back to Indian Affairs. They are telling us they don't have adequate funds.

I would like to ask Johanne to add her own comments.

[Johanne Jean]

I think you have pretty well covered everything.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Do I have any time left, Mr. Chairman?

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

You have a minute and a half.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

My question is for Mr. Blackned.

In your opinion, what is the main obstacle preventing an Aboriginal student from pursuing his or her studies at the college or university level?

[Gordon Blackned]

Thank you for your question, Mr. Lemay.

The main difficulty for a student is adjusting to a strange environment that they're not really accustomed to. We keep our children in our communities up to secondary five. Some of them graduate at different ages, maybe at 17 or 18, while others are a little older but we continue to keep them in our school until they graduate.

In some cases, most of them will not go on to post-secondary education because of the fear within that they are going to be faced with something totally different from their environment. I think the social adjustments are also another problem.

On top of that, you're looking at schools that are isolated. The education itself in those schools is viewed and perceived as lower-quality instruction. And because of the fact as well that our Cree language is strong, we also teach both second languages, French and English, and sometimes a third language in certain schools. So we have the mother tongue Cree, a second language English, and a third language French, although it could be vice versa in some of the schools.

So there are a number of factors, but from personal experience, I have pinpointed it to the social adjustment to a strange environment. That's pretty well the main problem that we're faced with. Like I said before, we would probably resolve it if we were to bring home some programs within our Cree communities or within the territory that we live in.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

Madam Crowder.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank the participants for coming and eloquently describing not only some of the suggestions and recommendations, but also the conditions.

I'm going to start with a statement.

Mr. Whiteduck, I believe, referenced that we've had years and years of studies. The barriers are well identified. When I ask my specific questions, I wonder if you could think about why it is that we have not been able to act on some of those recommendations and studies that have been so well documented.

I have a couple of questions, and I'm not sure who would be the ones to answer.

In British Columbia we have a system of university colleges, which is an attempt to bring education down to community levels. The university college offers a range of vocational, technical, literacy, and university programs. I heard Mr. Whiteduck--or perhaps it was Mr. Blackned--say that students who don't get access to vocational training in high school don't have access. I wonder if somebody could comment on what needs to be done in order to give first nations and other aboriginal students access to vocational programs. That's one question.

The second question is if you're talking about a first nations college or university, I assume there would be a structural location somewhere in a community, but you still would have the challenge of having students needing to relocate from their communities, because it's such a vast territory. I wonder if you could talk about what would be needed to support those students, either in their own communities or in relocating.

Jump in, anybody.

[Gilbert Whiteduck]

In regard to vocational, I should point out that I have an old letter in front of me, dated 1972, in which Treasury Board had informed INAC that they could fund students at the vocational level. In those days they didn't call it post-secondary, they called it post-school.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Can you provide us with a copy of that letter?

[Gilbert Whiteduck]

Sure. It gives an idea.

In Quebec, as I mentioned, vocational training is given at the high school level. Usually all you need is a secondary four or grade ten to access it, unlike in other provinces, where you normally need post-secondary. Our recommendation would be that the post-secondary program incorporate the opportunity to access funding to go to vocational, because of the particular situation in Quebec. That certainly would alleviate it and create opportunities for the students in this area.

[Gordon Blackned]

To add to what Mr. Whiteduck is saying, I think you pointed to the fact that we're such a vast territory. The Cree territory is like that; we're spread out quite extensively. The problem we're faced with is what you're saying--relocating people from one community to another. A year or so ago we opened a training centre that was provided to us by the Ministry of Education in the community of Waswanipi. It's a central location for the inland groups, but it's quite a distance from the coastal community. The problem we're faced with is relocating those people. Again, the adjustment aspect comes into play. They're living in a community that's more or less strange to them. The dialect is different. Even some of the relationships are not that close between the communities, and that affects their education. Some last for a little while; some will last for the duration of the vocational training program.

In the Cree territory we've now evolved to the level where we have a training centre, but we're looking at a satellite type of arrangement where we can offer programs in our own communities by satellite. It might be interesting to note here as well that the Cree Nation is submitting a proposal to the governments for a Cree CÉGEP. We've already done a feasibility study on a CÉGEP; we've been looking at it over the last ten years. But because our communities are very spread out, there would not be a possibility of us building a structure to accommodate the training that's involved in a CÉGEP. We're looking at working with a recognized CÉGEP within the territory and putting in a satellite arrangement.

[Johanne Jean]

I'd like to answer your question about location.

The Université du Québec en Abitibi-Témiscamingue serves the entire vast area of Abitibi-Témiscamingue, as well as Northern Quebec -- in other words, about two thirds of the province. We have developed strategies to make a university education accessible to as many people as possible. For more than 25 years now, we have been working with First Nations communities. When communities ask us to provide part-time training -- for instance, a certificate in administration or management sciences -- we go right into the community. We have provided and continue to provide training in a great many communities, including Waswanipi, Oujé-Bougoumou, Chisasibi and Mistassini.

In the last few years, for example, we have been offering a Bachelor of Social Work program. We began with a cohort of 50 Cree students, 45 of whom received their diploma. A Bachelor-level program normally lasts three years, but it took us seven years to teach the program in nine Cree communities. We would set aside a certain number of days in a month to teach the students. The teachers, teaching assistants and support staff would go into a specific community, and then move on to another one the following month. The program was offered in nine communities over a seven-year period. We also provided training in Val d'Or and Rouyn-Noranda.

As Mr. Bagnell was saying, there are other strategies as well, such as distance learning and videoconferencing.

The UQAT has chosen to provide full-time training in Val d'Or, because it is located in the Abitibi-Témiscamingue—Northern Quebec region. It is a normal channel. First Nations communities have access to a range of services in Val d'Or. Edith could probably provide additional information in that regard.

We are not claiming to offer a solution for the province as a whole. I'm simply talking about what we are doing in our area of Abitibi-Témiscamingue and Northern Quebec.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

Mr. Blaney is next.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Lévis—Bellechasse, QC]

I would like to welcome our witnesses from the Aboriginal education sector. My parents are teachers, and your presentation this morning has been a real source of inspiration.

Education is at the very heart of economic development among First Nations. Indeed, next week, a number of us will be in Mashteuiatsh to attend the First Nations Socio-economic Forum. Education will be a major focus at the Forum since the entire morning on Thursday -- the main day of the Forum -- will be devoted to that theme. We are anxious to work in partnership with the First Nations and the Government of Quebec to explore different avenues that could help us to improve training.

My first question is addressed to our experts from the First Nations Education Council. Our Committee has been looking closely at post-secondary education and we are realizing that there are important barriers. I'd like to know what you are intending to do to encourage more First Nations students to attend the institutions you want to establish.

[Lise Bastien]

Thank you.

What is most important is a strong connection with the community. At the present time, provincial universities and colleges are not in tune with the needs of First Nations, whereas our organizations maintain an ongoing relationship with them. It's us, basically.

The college established by the First Nations Education Council will belong to 22 communities. Right off the bat, communities will promote and value their young people's participation in this college's programs. Of course, this is an alternative, as opposed to a panacea or a solution that can fit everyone's needs. So, it won't be a problem attracting as many students as possible.

Mr. Blaney mentioned that there are a number of facets to post-secondary education. We do not believe there is a single solution. We must consider as many alternatives as possible in order to reach as many students as possible. What is most attractive about our project, is that the college will be for First Nations only. We will have to prove ourselves in the first few years.

On the other hand, at the university level, we do offer a Certificate in Aboriginal Leadership. It is open to everyone. We see value in allowing First Nations and non-Aboriginal Canadians to come together and exchange views. It is interesting to see the reaction of non-Aboriginal students to what we tell them about our history as part of a program designed by First Nations. It results in very interesting exchanges. We hope that this will improve relations.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Lévis—Bellechasse, QC]

I understand. Having Aboriginal post-secondary institutions may be a way of saying that from kindergarten all the way up to high school, there are opportunities.

[Gilbert Whiteduck]

We have to improve the quality of education at the primary and secondary levels, to ensure that students have the appropriate academic background. We need to give them a solid secondary level program, so that they have the necessary prerequisites to pursue their studies at the post-secondary level, without having to take a transition program.

We spoke about role models and their importance. It's very important that young people see young role models. As a matter of fact, yesterday 12 youth role models were named, and the Governor General made presentations to them. I attended that. There was so much pride, and other young people were there seeing what these young people were doing and how successful they had been. Our young people within the community need to get a feel for that, but we have to have a solid secondary school.

I know this committee has been looking at elementary and secondary, but I'm saying we've got to build the base in order to work at the upper level later on. We have to give hope to people that when they go, they will have the prerequisites. The challenge is already difficult and challenging enough socially; if you're at an academic disadvantage, it is even more difficult.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Lévis—Bellechasse, QC]

Thank you. I have a question for our friends who are behind the Abitibi project.

What role will this project play in developing the university? I am thinking in particular of attendance levels and mechanisms you have developed to properly integrate First Nations students. How does that fit in with your plans for developing your institution?

[Johanne Jean]

As I mentioned in passing a little earlier, we have been working with First Nations communities for more than 25 years. In the last five years, we have increased the number of interventions, in response to requests we have received. Of course, in our area, we deal mainly with Crees and Algonquins. Together with First Nations communities, our institution has decided to take up this challenge.

We have chosen to do so in a special way in the community of Val d'Or. Our project there -- which is already underway -- involves providing full-time training aimed primarily at First Nations communities in Val d'Or, in cooperation with them. In terms of strategy, other universities obviously operate differently, but we have decided to form groups made up solely of students from First Nations communities who, depending on what their second or third working language is, will study either in French or in English.

You asked us how we could increase access to, or attendance at, primary, secondary and post-secondary institutions. At the present time, we are training a lot of teachers. We believe there is a need to reintroduce into these communities teachers who have been properly trained and have the same diplomas as any other graduate. This is important, and this is one of the rules that we have adopted.