Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Oct. 24th, 2006

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

Thank you, Mr. Mendelson.

Madame Karetak-Lindell, please.

[Nancy Karetak-Lindell, Liberal, Nunavut, NU]

Thank you, Mr. Mendelson, for your presentation.

I have a couple of questions. I don't know if you can cover them all.

While I certainly agree with you that we need to get more students graduating from high school, I think there needs to be more of an overall plan of connecting why we want them to go to post-secondary education.

Have you examined the reasons that first nations and aboriginal people are having some success at the post-secondary education level? Specifically, does your research identify those reasons for success, and also the reasons for a lack of success at all levels of first nations and aboriginal education, kindergarten to grade 12 and post-secondary education?

[Michael Mendelson]

The answer is that this research did not look at the reasons for success or failure. Some other work I've done might reflect on that. Anecdotally, my sister taught for 30 years in the inner city in Winnipeg, but this research does not look at reasons. In my paper, I have a policy map of barriers for people, but we know that the drop-out issue starts about grades eight or nine, and that's where we start running into problems, both in the cities and on reserve.

While I have the opportunity, I want to stress that while I focus attention on reserves, because of that last graphic on page16, if you look at the city of Winnipeg itself, about 48% of aboriginal students are failing to complete high school. So it's not much better in the cities either.

I don't really have an answer to your question.

[Nancy Karetak-Lindell, Liberal, Nunavut, NU]

That takes me to my next point. We were throwing a lot of statistics around, and it looks like gloom and doom, but I don't think it presents a fair picture of what the balance is. We're just throwing statistics out, but we don't really get into some of the systemic difficulties that explain why we have those statistics. It's very difficult for us to be seeing a one-moment picture and not really the whole picture.

I would ask if your analysis identified the percentage of high school learners who complete post-secondary education, also by the types of institutions, whether it's mainstream versus indigenous institutes of higher learning?

[Michael Mendelson]

That's an important question, and it's not one I've looked at, although I've discussed it. I've had a lively discussion with other researchers, and I've been encouraging other researchers to look at this kind of information.

I want to say a few things. One is that I've tried to take an objective look at the situation, based on the empirical data. It raises many questions I would like other people to look into, to research, and understand. It's important to do that. It's important to try to take an objective look at what the reality is, as best we can, even though we might not like some of it. I did not start out having any idea that there was a 70% failure rate on reserves in Manitoba--I'm from Manitoba, by the way, Winnipeg--and I was astonished and incredibly discouraged to hear that, but it's not all doom and gloom to say this. The non-university post-secondary sector is doing well, and that's something we can learn, and high school graduates are doing well. From the census data, we know the kids who graduate from high school are going on at the same rate to complete some post-secondary education, essentially achieving equity. That is a positive. It's not all gloom and doom, but it is difficult. It's a difficult empirical reality to confront, but I didn't make up the data.

[Nancy Karetak-Lindell, Liberal, Nunavut, NU]

Was there any relationship between success and the proximity of where they went to school? In some other presentations we've seen, the farther you are away from where you come from and where you went to school, there's probably a better chance you're going to drop out.

[Michael Mendelson]

This is a pretty limited piece of research, but it's an important piece of research. It opens up questions. I'm saying to myself and others, here's the situation, how can we explain it? We know that statistically the geographic proximity to a post-secondary educational institution is one of the factors that determines success or failure in the general population. So, yes, I'm sure this is one of the important factors as well, although that wouldn't be to high school, necessarily.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

Mr. Lemay.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you for those figures, Mr. Mendelson. My first question will be very specific. Where did you get those statistics that you presented to us today?

You'll understand why I ask you that question once you've answered it.

[Michael Mendelson]

You'll be surprised to know that all these data are available free on the Internet through the Statistics Canada website. If you look, you can find it. It's free of charge and it's all aggregate data. I would like researchers to go deeper than I have by looking at what's called micro-data. I didn't have the capacity, the time, or the finances to do that, but all the data I've used are available for free.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Can you go to slide 6, where you say that massive migration off-reserve is a myth. What if I told you that your figures contradict those of the department, which we have obtained? They say there is an off-reserve migration.

What do we do now? I'm almost certain that the departmental people are in the field, but I would like to hear you say it.

[Michael Mendelson]

I would have to see the department's data to know. I haven't seen it, but I have seen two studies by Statistics Canada of off-reserve migration, and they both came to the same conclusion that I have.

I've not seen the Indian and Northern Affairs Canada study you refer to. I'd be surprised if that's what they said, though, because as far as I know they've never said that in the past. But maybe there's a peculiar situation in Quebec that I don't know about. You've got me at a loss, because I haven't seen the study you're referring to.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

I read your statistics. I understand your presentation.

Am I correctly analyzing the situation if I say that, if students live off-reserve, they have better chances of completing high school than if they live on a reserve? If the answer to that question is yes, how can we ensure that young Aboriginal students complete high school on the reserves or in their northern communities?

[Michael Mendelson]

That is the question. As to whether you have a higher probability of completing high school if you live off reserve, the answer is yes. But it depends where you live. In Winnipeg and other cities in the west, there's a high proportion of aboriginal students who are not completing high school, as compared to, say, in Toronto, Montreal, or Halifax. As I recall, in Winnipeg 48% of aboriginal students do not complete high school. I have the data in my paper.

It's a complicated answer, because it depends upon region. In general, though, on-reserve students have a greater challenge than students not on-reserve. But I want to point out that some reserves are doing incredibly well. On some reserves, every single kid is completing high school and going on to post-secondary education. So there are a few reserves that are very focused.

You asked the more important question: What can we do to improve the results on reserve in the K to 12 system? That's the $60,000 question. Just as an advertisement, I have a paper that will come out shortly, a policy paper addressing that very question. It will come out on the Caledon Institute website in the next two or three days. I was hoping it would come out before I came here. My short answer, which isn't dealt with in this paper, is that we need a school system for reserves in Canada. Right now, most of the reserves in Canada are operating on what I would call a village school model. They're isolated, and they don't have the support that would be provided by a large board of education—superintendents, principals, or development of curriculum, including culturally appropriate curriculum. This kind of support is incredibly important.

So we have to think about how first nations can develop their own school system, rather than a set of isolated village schools on reserves. There are exceptions, mainly because of the initiatives being undertaken by first nations. For example, in B.C. there's an interesting emerging model. It's not quite a school board, but almost. It's important to look at successes. There's a lot going on. But I'd say the reserve K to 12 system looks a lot like our rural education system did in 1946 or 1950, with a bunch of little schools funded by their individual towns and communities.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

You're out of time, Mr. Lemay.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

I just want to know.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

Madam Crowder.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Thanks, Mr. Mendelson, for your presentation.

This committee is looking at post-secondary schools, and is well aware of the challenges in the K to 12 system. They've been identified by the Auditor General. We're waiting somewhat impatiently for their department to weigh out its management plan and framework.

Part of my concern with your presentation is that we've been hearing from witnesses across the country that there are some serious issues within the post-secondary system—supporting aboriginal students in getting into the system and then making sure they finish. If you were to make a recommendation to the government on where to put money, what would you be saying?

[Michael Mendelson]

You're asking me to make the kinds of choices that people get elected to make, and I'm not elected.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

But your kind of research could be used. We've often heard the members opposite say that we need to focus on the K to 12 system. But we know there are significant issues in the post-secondary system. I would argue that we need to look at both systems, not just the K to 12.

[Michael Mendelson]

From my perspective, I would place aboriginal educational success above almost any other desirable outcome. It's the key to the success of the aboriginal community in Canada. So anything we can do to improve the educational outcomes would be a higher priority than almost anything I could think of in Canada.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

And that would include the post-secondary system.

[Michael Mendelson]

Do both, I would say. That would be my answer.

I know that governments have to make choices, because I've been there. You have to make difficult choices between the things you want to do. You want to do two good things and you can't afford to do them both. In this case, to repeat what I said at the opening, my own argument is that if you have an aboriginal student who's gotten themselves into university, and a bursary or a scholarship could keep them there and help them succeed and get through that tough first year, which is harder now--I failed first year, by the way, not atypical--then let's do it. To me that's a higher priority than almost anything else I can think of--maybe even than anything else I can think of--particularly for the west.

As I said before, every single aboriginal student who gets themselves into a post-secondary education system and manages to qualify is such a precious resource, for their own community and for us, that how can we lose this? Let's find a way. I'm not sure, but if funding Roberta's foundation is a way to do it, then we could talk about that.

So I don't want to choose between particularly this or that, but I would say we need to think. Having said that, I don't want to lose the reality that you can do all you want on the post-secondary, but gee, if we have a 70% failure in high school....

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

I don't think anybody disagrees with that, but I think the real challenge--and I have another question, so I don't want you to answer this--is that if we turn out a whole bunch more students in K to 12 and don't do something with the post-secondary system, we're going to turn out students who can't get into the post-secondary system and be supported in it. So I think I would agree, we need to do both. We can't do just one.

Now, I want you to talk about data limitations. There have been in the past lots of concerns around census data. Anecdotally, there's a concern that aboriginal peoples are not necessarily represented adequately in census data because many people do not fill out the forms.

Can you talk quickly--I don't have much time left--about what are the key data limitations pieces?

[Michael Mendelson]

There are a lot of data limitations, which I go through in the paper. That's why I tell other researchers to prove me wrong, to use some of the micro-data to start looking at these kinds of issues in a lot more detail.

This is sort of like the high-level geological survey that says there may be gold here, or there may be diamonds there--now somebody get down on the ground and do some digging. That's sort of what I've done on this. I've just used that census data and there are a lot of limitations.

One limitation is that there are about 31,000 people on reserves, mainly in Quebec and Ontario, who didn't report at all in the census. They are not included here. This is footnoted in the paper. Another limitation concerns some very serious issues about the actual education variables, as reported by Statistics Canada itself, that...but I don't want to get into the technical details.

At any rate, one of the reasons that no one else has looked at the data in this way is that they hadn't been able to work themselves through the thicket of that data. It's the hierarchical variable, and it's not really the right variable, to be frank about it.

So there are data limitations, which I discuss extensively in here. I would say that you should treat this as a high-level geological survey--it's a nice analogy, I suppose, and I just thought of it--and look deeper.