Evidence of meeting #25 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was martin.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

10:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Colin Mayes

Thank you. We're out of time.

Ms. Neville.

Anita Neville Liberal Winnipeg South Centre, MB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My colleague has one quick comment, and then I will pick it up.

10:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Colin Mayes

Sorry, Ms. Neville, it's actually the Bloc.

Mr. Lemay, please.

Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

I'm pleased about this because I was never a member of the last two governments, either of the Liberal Party or the Conservative Party, and I will not be a member, I am pretty sure. I apologize to our guests this morning, but I am dumbfounded to hear the parliamentary secretary say things that I would describe, to say the very least, as irresponsible.

A project is being discussed. We are this morning debating a project about Aboriginal peoples, the first nations, the Inuit, whom we have left in need for too long. We had a plan, the Kelowna Accord, and the party in power has never been able to tell us where the money has gone, the $5 billion provided under this accord. I am still in shock. One thing is certain, the matter will not rest there.

I was at Mashteuiatsh. Stop telling me stories. I saw what you did. You did nothing at Mashteuiatsh, except rehash the announcement that had already been made. What I want to know is where the $5 billion went. The Kelowna Accord is something the first nations need and the Inuit need.

We've been told that the accord was reached in no time at all, and that it is Mr. Martin's political legacy, and Mr. Goodale's as well, as if you are all about to retire. I would like you to explain one thing to me. I have heard it said that it took a year and a half to negotiate this accord. I would therefore like you to explain to us—please don't take a year and a half to explain it to us, but perhaps a minute and a half—what happened during that year and a half that led the Aboriginal peoples to gather together on November 24 and 25, 2005? That is what I would like to know. You could perhaps explain it at the same time to my Conservative colleagues.

Paul Martin Liberal LaSalle—Émard, QC

I am going to ask Mr. Scott, who was intimately involved in the process during that year and a half, to answer your question. The first thing I wanted to do as Prime Minister was to organize a meeting between the Aboriginal leaders and Cabinet. It was a public meeting to really kick-start the process.

Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

What date was that on?

Paul Martin Liberal LaSalle—Émard, QC

It was in the month of April 2004. We had begun even earlier to discuss the agreement on health. At the time, the provinces and the Aboriginal peoples asked us to negotiate a comprehensive accord. We therefore immediately got discussions underway.

I would ask Mr. Scott to give you the details.

Andy Scott Liberal Fredericton, NB

The Kelowna process began in April 2004, when 475 aboriginal organizations got together and chose the five national organizations that would carry it forward.

The next significant date was the meeting in September 2004, when the first ministers met on health. That's where the $700 million came from and where the commitment was made for a first ministers meeting on aboriginal issues for the following fall in Kelowna. The idea of that first ministers meeting was born at the health first ministers meeting in September 2004.

All the work that was done and all of the substance that validates everything we say that is contained within the records of the Government of Canada--all of those decisions--was done collaboratively, including dealing with the issues of systems, accountability, and governance. All of those things were not imposed and arrived at from on high, but were done collaboratively with the community. We were essentially trying to recognize that the mistake of the past was that everything was done unilaterally from the top down.

The next series of meetings happened over the winter of 2004-05, when we took the six areas and had round tables on them across Canada. The critics were there, everybody was invited, and members of Parliament from all political parties were there. Then we met with the aboriginal affairs ministers from the provinces in Winnipeg on March 16. They needed to be included because to that point it was still bilateral, between the Government of Canada and the community.

The very important policy agreement that took place at the end of May saw accords established with each of the communities on the process for future deliberation. That was part of what we were trying to achieve--establish a respectful relationship, so that when we dealt with education and health we would have the framework within which to do that. That was much celebrated. I remember the moment very well.

I'll continue to answer perhaps later.

10:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Colin Mayes

Thank you, Mr. Scott.

The chair's going to take the privilege of asking a question, if you don't mind, committee.

Mr. Martin, I've said this before at this committee that leadership is knowing when talk stops and when the work begins. My concern is that I feel our government is being ridiculed because we don't necessarily embrace the figures, the amounts of the accord, but we have embraced the priorities that were set out. We started to do the work, we stopped talking. We're moving on housing. We're moving on water quality infrastructure for first nations communities.

My question to you, Mr. Martin, is this: where is the plan to implement the priorities set out by the accord?

Paul Martin Liberal LaSalle—Émard, QC

Mr. Chairman, the plan is set throughout the accord. It set objectives.

Let me give you an example in one area. It said they wanted to have, quite specifically, 22,000 more high school graduates within the next five years and they wanted to eliminate the gap between aboriginals and non-aboriginals in 10 years, which is 110,000 students. They said they wanted 14,900--I think it was close to 15,000--at the end of five years.

10:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Colin Mayes

Mr. Martin, the question is not that it isn't a good priority; the question is, how were you going to do that?

Paul Martin Liberal LaSalle—Émard, QC

What it said was--and that's where the transformative change agreement within British Columbia, which was to be the model for the rest of the country, came in. It said each province is going to have to operate this differently because each province is in charge of education. For instance, you were seeing on-reserve education under the control of the band, but following the provincial curriculum. What was set out was how we were going to achieve that target province by province, community by community. That had to be worked out. Because we didn't want to waste any more time, at the suggestion of the provinces, we were going to measure this every two to three years, not every five years, as had been originally established.

So Mr. Chairman, Kelowna announced the targets. We don't believe the federal government can impose the way of arriving at those targets on communities or on the provincial governments. All three have to work together, province by province, community by community, to achieve them. That's what Kelowna does.

10:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Colin Mayes

Are you aware that the Government of Canada signed an agreement with the Province of British Columbia and the first nations leadership in British Columbia to do just that, to put forward the framework for education?

Paul Martin Liberal LaSalle—Émard, QC

Yes, I am.

10:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Colin Mayes

To me that's getting the work done, and that's what I'm trying to point out. Our government is getting the work done. We implemented it. We went forward. The criticism is that we're not following through with those priorities as set out, and that is not true. We are following those priorities, specifically in housing, specifically in water quality, infrastructure needs, and education. There is no criticism that there isn't work being done on the ground level.

Paul Martin Liberal LaSalle—Émard, QC

With respect, Mr. Chairman, we are delighted to see the government carrying through on projects we created or we signed. The fact is that that is one. You have to do this; this has to be magnified 10 times and in three territories.

The second thing is that there has been no money allocated by the government. I can tell you, Mr. Chairman, you cannot improve health care or education, you can't improve housing or provide clean water unless the money is made available. You can't do it by simply snapping your fingers. The government has refused to make the money available to implement the accord. That's what this is all about, Mr. Chairman.

10:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Colin Mayes

Did you review our last budget?

Mr. Blaney, I'll let you ask for the second part of this five minutes.

10:45 a.m.

Conservative

Steven Blaney Conservative Lévis—Bellechasse, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

This morning, we indeed spoke more about what divides us than what unites us, but I think we all share the same principles, and that we all want to see an improvement in living conditions for Aboriginal peoples. I think that Ms. Karetak-Lindell has highlighted the constructive work that is being done within the community, and I can assure the members of the committee this morning that we intend to continue, because the next priority is housing, and that is also one of the minister's priorities.

Mr. Lemay, as you know, there was an agreement for and by the first nations with respect to education in Mashteuiatsh. You know that we are very seriously interested in education.

Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

Has anything been signed?

10:45 a.m.

Conservative

Steven Blaney Conservative Lévis—Bellechasse, QC

Yes, a memorandum has been signed, Mr. Lemay. And that is what we need to remember from this morning. We agree on the principles, and we are working through the agenda that was established to improve living conditions for the first nations.

Mr. Martin, you made significant efforts from the governance standpoint, but that is not an aspect that came out of the Kelowna Accord. How do you think, as a committee or as a government, the governance and autonomy of the first nations could be improved, please?

Paul Martin Liberal LaSalle—Émard, QC

First of all, there is no doubt that governance is absolutely crucial. We are not the only people to say so, and the Aboriginal leaders have said so themselves. That is why, for example, the first nations will appoint an auditor general to serve them directly. I think that governance is transparency, and one of the factors that we included in the Kelowna Accord was transparency, in addition to the ability to measure outcomes. This, to me, is absolutely crucial. Governance means honesty, transparency and structures, but it also means achieving objectives. It is a basic philosophy, and I think all of the factors need to be combined together. We certainly endorse efforts to achieve governance, but we need to go much farther: Governance for what purpose?

10:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Colin Mayes

Okay, we are moving on to Madame Crowder.

Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC

Thank you.

Since this will be my last question, I would like to thank the chair now for attempting to keep some order here. I'd also like to thank our guests for coming and thank the people who are here listening to this important discussion.

I just need to correct a bit of information in terms of what the Conservative member said I indicated in my question. I did not say it was only the Liberal record for the past 13 years--although as a New Democrat, you know I'm very critical of the things that were not done over the last 13 years--but I did say that both the Conservative and Liberal governments over decades have failed to fulfill their commitments.

In terms of the tripartite agreement in British Columbia, on May 4, 2006, the First Nations Leadership Council from British Columbia wrote a letter to the Prime Minister, to Jim Flaherty, and to Jim Prentice, saying:

Your government has reneged on this historic multi-government agreement, and has proceeded to unilaterally implement its own plan to address our issues without any consultations with us....The funds announced in your budget will do very little to remedy chronic under-funding or the crushing poverty and appalling socio-economic conditions of First Nations communities.

I guess one of the things I would encourage this committee to do is actually invite the leadership council--I am talking about the three leadership groups in British Columbia--to come and talk to members about their understanding of the Kelowna accord, their understanding of its commitment, their understanding of how it was going to be implemented, and their understanding of where the gaps are.

As well, we also need to highlight some of the successes--like Membertou, like Patuanak, like Westbank--and build on those successes. Members of the committee have talked about this before.

The other plea we've heard from first nations, Métis, and Inuit leadership and community members is that we rise above partisan politics and come together as a government, as communities, and as first nations, Métis, and Inuit leadership to address these critical, serious issues.

I think I need to remind each and every one of us here that we are talking about people. My very first duty, when I was elected in 2004 was to attend a funeral on July 1 for a first nations youth who had hanged himself.

You started to talk about leadership but were interrupted, and I would like you to go back to the issue of leadership. I wonder why we cannot bring together a committee that includes first nations, Métis, and Inuit leadership and this committee to actually meaningfully move forward. We've had too many announcements and not enough action.

Paul Martin Liberal LaSalle—Émard, QC

I have just two comments, because I know time is running.

I believe the suggestion that has been made by Ms. Crowder in terms of bringing the aboriginal leadership to this committee and working together is a very positive one. It's essentially what we tried to do at Kelowna. It's what was done at Mr. Scott's round tables. So I think the suggestion made by Ms. Crowder would be very valuable.

As we wind down here, I'd like to pick up on something else she just said. That is, we do talk a lot about...and with justification, because you can't go into some of these communities without seeing the tragedies that occur. But we don't talk enough about the successes; Ms. Crowder is absolutely right.

Mr. Chairman, there are some extraordinary successes out there in terms of entrepreneurship, in terms of bands that have come together to deal with their problems, in terms of the turnaround in education. When you see what band leadership can do when it really does take hold, it is extraordinary. That's why, I think, I'm so optimistic about the future.

So we ought to talk more about the successes. I'm very glad you brought that up.

10:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Colin Mayes

Going back over to the government side, who will speak?

Mr. Bruinooge.