Evidence of meeting #25 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was martin.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Rod Bruinooge Conservative Winnipeg South, MB
That's what, unfortunately, this is about, Mr. Martin. Here you come before the committee with your two former ministers, pretending that you're still the Prime Minister of Canada.
Conservative
November 9th, 2006 / 9:50 a.m.
Liberal
Gary Merasty Liberal Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I'm going to take what I think needs to happen here, a bit more of a responsible road in this process here in the committee. I'm very honoured to have all our witnesses speak to us this morning. I think very clearly we've established the process leading up to the Kelowna accord. There was no napkin that was utilized here. It was broadcast. There were real premiers, I believe, in attendance there. And I think there were real aboriginal people in attendance.
As a matter of fact, I recall that the Saskatchewan legislature passed an all-party motion calling upon the Kelowna accord to be implemented, so they obviously think it's real, and the process leading up to it was real. And the B.C. government, the Premier of British Columbia, Gordon Campbell, and others....
So I think we've established the process that led to the establishment of the Kelowna accord. I was involved in many different ways, and I know the Saskatchewan aboriginal leadership coined “the Kelowna Accord” leading up to it.
There are two questions on which I want further clarification. We talked about the process. The two other criticisms we've heard from the government are that there were no plans and there was no money. Now we've taken care of the process; it occurred. They said there were no plans. Perhaps there needs to be an understanding--and this is something that our party and the three of you went through--that the best solutions to aboriginal issues came from the community in the last two or three decades and that the lesson learned was that we needed to turn to the community for the development of these specific plans.
Could you maybe elaborate a bit on that, Mr. Scott?
Liberal
Andy Scott Liberal Fredericton, NB
Thank you very much.
The fundamental premise behind this exercise was the collaboration and inclusion on the basis of the fact that most, if not all, of the failures of the past can be attributed to the unilateral--well-intentioned perhaps, but unilateral--actions by national and provincial governments, in my view. So the collaboration happened.
In terms of dealing with the content--and this was collaboratively, deliberately established content--in fact, the substance behind the Kelowna accord would be a very large number of documents that are available to the government right now. I myself probably took 10 or 15 memos to cabinet on content, government decisions that we were going to do this. Once the government decided that they wanted to do it, I would go back to the Department of Indian Affairs and they would cost it. Then I'd have to come back to cabinet to secure the funding that Mr. Goodale was talking about, an elaborate system, and there were four ministers involved, because I did education and negotiations, Mr. Alcock did accountability, and Minister Emerson did economic development. Mr. Emerson went to cabinet with a plan for economic development and got approval from the government for that plan.
All those things came forward, all those things were costed, and the money was secured for all of it. So if the government genuinely wanted to implement the Kelowna accord, it could do so immediately, because the content is there, the collaboration is there, the support from the provinces and the first nations is there, and the money was there. So there's no question that it could be done. If it has to be done over again, as tragic as that would be, I would encourage that, because the model exists.
Liberal
Gary Merasty Liberal Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK
I think this year we've heard this government talk about investing more than any other government in the past, and I think in the appearance of the minister at the last meeting, he acknowledged that none of this year's budget has gone through. In fact, the cuts, if I add them, lead to a net loss to first nations communities to date.
Talking about the money, Mr. Goodale, you talked about the corroboration and you expanded a bit on that with Mr. Lemay. Can you tell me the significance of the Prime Minister and the finance minister having to actually step in and take the money away? Can you maybe explain that process a bit better?
Liberal
Ralph Goodale Liberal Wascana, SK
It never did happen under Mr. Martin's mandate. As I said to Monsieur Lemay, when we left office in the early part of February the money remained booked in the fiscal framework, as we had earlier indicated. Obviously, at some point after that date someone decided to go in a different direction. The money was removed and used for some other purpose.
Liberal
Gary Merasty Liberal Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK
A handshake is key with the leaders who were in--
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Colin Mayes
Unfortunately we can't. We're moving on to the government side.
Mr. Blaney, please.
Conservative
Steven Blaney Conservative Lévis—Bellechasse, QC
I would like to thank the witnesses for having come to meet us this morning.
Mr. Martin, I would like to tell you that with Mr. Harper, our government has gone beyond the discussions held in Kelowna with respect to improving the living conditions for the first nations. As you know, spending in the last budget was higher than in all previous budgets, including Mr. Goodale's.
One thing was also demonstrated, namely that there never was an agreement. We know that there was a press release, but nothing was signed with the first nations. I think that this became very clear this morning. I feel that the first nations now want to be a party to the decisions.
I am thinking of the first nations in Quebec that were not involved in the exercise. I am thinking also of Mr. Picard, who said:
Who are we trying to fool by announcing three, four or five billion dollars in Kelowna to magically combat poverty...
You spoke this morning about the $300 million for housing. The problem is that to meet the needs of the Quebec reserves alone, the total required would be $1.5 billion. We feel, Mr. Martin, that we have begun an exercise, well after the Kelowna meeting, working together with the first nations and the Government of Quebec. This happened a few months ago in Mashteuiatsh. I was there.
I would like to know how we can add money without making structural changes. I would like to hear your comments on this subject. I would also like to know what you think of Mr. Picard's statement to the effect that he felt he had been fooled by the Kelowna Accord.
Liberal
Paul Martin Liberal LaSalle—Émard, QC
Mr. Merasty just said that in the Aboriginal communities, a handshake amounted to an agreement. He said that they had shaken hands and that this was an agreement between the governments and the Aboriginal leadership.
Conservative
Steven Blaney Conservative Lévis—Bellechasse, QC
Mr. Martin, Aboriginal women were not in attendance, and the provincial governments did not sign the accord.
Liberal
Paul Martin Liberal LaSalle—Émard, QC
If I may, I would like to add some details. As Mr. Scott just said, there was an agreement with British Columbia and also the Prime Minister of Saskatchewan who said that there was an agreement. They were both there and everyone who saw the event on television could see that there had been an agreement. I do not understand why you are so emphatic about denying the reality rather than discuss education, health, illness, in short the situation in which people find themselves.
As for Mr. Picard's statement, I know that at the summit held in Quebec a week ago, he said that he had been very disappointed with the reaction of the Conservative government, which went there, but did not stay and did not put anything on the table.
Conservative
Steven Blaney Conservative Lévis—Bellechasse, QC
It was at the joint press conference, Mr. Martin. Mr. Prentice was there and he made a commitment. There was a follow-up agreement, which was not the case for the Kelowna Accord. I am keen to pursue the work of this committee once we will have finished debating this motion. Then we will be able to talk about housing, which is an urgent problem in the communities, Mr. Martin. Structural changes need to be made, which was not discussed at all in the press releases from Kelowna.
I have another question.
Conservative
Conservative
Steven Blaney Conservative Lévis—Bellechasse, QC
I would like to know what you think about the statement made by my colleague on the other side of the table, Mr. Lemay. He said:
...let's not delude ourselves, the Kelowna Accord is nothing more than a provisional measure that will not do anything to improve the long-term living conditions for Aboriginal peoples.
If we have not yet been able to manage to make significant structural changes, why should we not work on concrete solutions, for example with respect to housing?
Liberal
Paul Martin Liberal LaSalle—Émard, QC
Let's begin by putting our cards on the table. For housing, it is not $300 million but $1.6 billion. If the Kelowna Accord was adopted, that money would be spent on housing.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Colin Mayes
Mr. Blaney, would you give Mr. Martin the opportunity to respond to that question, please?
Liberal
Paul Martin Liberal LaSalle—Émard, QC
You asked me the question, so allow me to answer it. So we're talking about $1.6 million; if you adopt the Kelowna Accord, the money is there.
Second, when Mr. Lemay says that the Kelowna is a foundation that must be built on, then I fully agree with him. The Kelowna Accord really provides the framework, the money and the capacity to measure results from which it will be possible to build.
If the government tells us that it wants to take this farther, we will be the first to applaud it.
Bloc
Gérard Asselin Bloc Manicouagan, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Messrs. Martin, Goodale and Scott, I represent the riding of greater Manicouagan in Quebec, on the North Shore of the St. Lawrence River, where there are several Aboriginal communities, all of which are Montagnais: Betsiamite, Uashat-Maliotenam, Mingan, Pointe-Parent, Romaine, Saint-Augustin, Shefferville and a number of others.
Mr. Martin, the government and the three opposition parties need to agree to on the fact that the Kelowna Accord is essential. Bill C-292 must be adopted if the government is to deal with the needs of the Aboriginal communities.
After several years of discussions, I would even say after a very long time, we were nevertheless able to come to an agreement that gave a glimmer of hope to the Aboriginal communities that were expecting help from the federal government. The Aboriginal communities have health, housing, drinking water and education problems, and a very high level of poverty, all of which compromise their quality of life.
The Kelowna Accord was debated in the House of Commons and put to a vote on several occasions. Even if the three opposition parties, which form a majority in the House of Commons, were to adopt Bill C-292, there could still be a problem: according to information provided by the chairman, royal recommendation is required to enact this bill.
Mr. Martin, as a former Minister of Finance and former Prime Minister, could you tell us whether you think that Bill C-292 can be enacted if Parliament does not grant royal recommendation.
Liberal
Paul Martin Liberal LaSalle—Émard, QC
Your question is very relevant.
The government has the option. The House of Commons will have spoken: that will leave only a final stage to go through. But if the government refuses royal recommendation, this will mean that the government, with respect to the education, health and housing for Aboriginal peoples, is not interested in improving the situation.
On the other hand, it could very well be that there are ways of getting around this obstacle by making use of a number of procedures. And I tell you this not because I lack hope. Ultimately, the government will have to come to a decision on this matter. Does it want the Aboriginal peoples in our country to have the same opportunities as other citizens? If it refuses the Kelowna Accord, their response will be clear. I cannot believe that Canadians will find this acceptable.
Bloc
Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC
Mr. Martin, Mr. Scott or Mr. Goodale, I too was at Mashteuiatsh and witnessed a government recycling effort of $3.8 million for health. These amounts had already been announced. The good achievement was the First Nations Building at the University of Quebec in Abitibi-Témiscamingue, but that was provided by the Minister of Economic Development.
How can we, the three opposition parties, go ahead and implement the Kelowna Accord if the government refuses to do so? What are we to do?
Where are the $5 billion? Mr. Goodale or Mr. Scott, you had started talking. Have you heard anything about this in recent months? Where has the $5 billion that the first nations have been waiting for since November 25, 2005 gone?
Liberal
Andy Scott Liberal Fredericton, NB
It was redirected by the government to other things. There's no other explanation. Having said that, though, part of causing Parliament to have the outcome we want is that the members on the government side have not been given much of the information.
For instance, Mr. Blaney just asked a question about how you can just fix the problem in terms of housing without the kind of deliberative policy consideration that would change the system, improve the system, transform it. All of that exists. Mr. Fontana spent hours on social housing. All of these things were debated and discussed. There was collaboration with the first nations on and off reserve and in the north, and with the Métis, for hours.
The bottom line is that the information necessary to make the decision that this group would like made exists. The fact that you don't know that probably explains the problem a little bit.