Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Nov. 9th, 2006

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

Thank you.

In your time as Minister of Finance or Prime Minister, have you ever changed this table?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

These tables change, obviously, with the evolution of time. But if you're asking did I ever take an amount out of there that was committed in a government program, I can't think of it.

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

Thank you.

The last question I'd like to get to is actually Ms. Crowder's question. I thought she had an excellent question for you.

You talked about shameful gaps between aboriginal and non-aboriginal Canadians. You talked about shameful poverty that first nations find themselves in. You talked about access to a quality education. These are all things that you talked about. And Ms. Crowder basically asked whether it actually took you 13 years to understand that these issues needed to be addressed. I don't want to once again hear you compare your government to pre-Confederation or paternalistic policies. I would like to simply ask, did it actually take you 13 years in cabinet and as Prime Minister of this country to understand that these issues needed to be addressed?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

I don't know how much time you're going to give me, but I have about three pages of things that were done over the last 13 years, from the $700 million to health care, to the aboriginal head start program, to the $100 million for broadband, the $62 million share of the gas tax, the $340 million to strengthen aboriginal social foundations. I can go through a long list, but I'm not sure it's particularly helpful. The fact of the matter is that an enormous amount was done.

What's different with Kelowna is that it laid the foundation, as in fact the members of the opposition have said, for a very different and much more comprehensive partnership going ahead.

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

Is it true, sir, that during the nineties you capped--

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

No, Mr. Storseth, you are finished.

Ms. Karetak-Lindell, please.

[Nancy Karetak-Lindell, Liberal, Nunavut, NU]

Thank you.

I'm puzzled as to where to even start. I can start by saying I'm very saddened by what I'm hearing this morning, but I'm also quite disappointed.

We as a committee usually work very respectfully. I was at a dinner last night telling my guests that we're very respectful of each other, of other members, in the House of Commons and especially at committee, but I might have to rethink that. I thought we had a certain protocol that we practised here, but I have to say if they can't even practise protocol at committee, no wonder they don't believe that protocol.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

Let's direct ourselves to the question, please.

[Nancy Karetak-Lindell, Liberal, Nunavut, NU]

My key here is that I'm an aboriginal Canadian. I'm an Inuit and I'm proud of that. I can stand firmly, I can speak on behalf of Inuit and be confident that I'm speaking for Inuit with Inuit. I know what Kelowna means to me and the people I represent.

As previous speakers have said, when a prime minister of a country gives their word to a group of people, we take that at face value. We were also at the highest level of talks as an aboriginal group in Canada. We were at the national table speaking with the Prime Minister of the country, who directed many of his cabinet ministers to also be at that table, to also make it a priority in their mandate to deal with aboriginal Canadians.

I don't know what more a group of people in Canada can ask for than to be assured by the Prime Minister that he has directed his cabinet ministers to make this a priority, to improve the lives of Canadians. The only thing I can see with the current government in terms of being at the table is to refer to a napkin, which is as close to the table as we can get these days.

So my question is very simple. I know what Kelowna means to me and the people I represent. What did Kelowna mean to you on a personal basis?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

I'd like to actually ask Andy, who was so involved, also to answer that.

It meant an enormous amount, and the reason it meant so much is the opportunity that I had to speak to the aboriginal leadership that day, but also the opportunity that I had in the subsequent weeks to talk to young men and women just about their situation.

The statistics of infant mortality, of shortened life expectancy, of disease, of tuberculosis, of AIDS, they're cold statistics in a room like this, but they're a reality in the communities where it's all happening. The hope in their eyes and certainly in mine.... There's no doubt about it, I believe this was a very important event. What we were doing was going to make significant steps and we were going to measure ourselves toward solving it.

I have to say to you that it meant an enormous amount to me, and it's really why I don't think this committee should be engaging in a lot of partisan discussion. I really think the committee should come together and say, how would we as Canadians deal with it?

Andy.

[Andy Scott, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Clearly, and I would assume this of any member of Parliament, nobody can deny this is a blight on the history of our country. Nobody can, I assume, deny the desire to deal with this, and I would argue it's very difficult to deny that Kelowna wasn't and isn't our best shot. Ask the community, ask the premiers. That is a reality.

I keep getting the question of proof. The proof exists. It's in the government's archives. I don't know where you put such things. All of the collaboration that is necessary to validate everything we're saying exists in the Privy Council. You can't go to cabinet...I don't know how many times I personally went to cabinet with ideas, seeking money, having decisions. Those records of decisions exist, whether it's transformation in housing or education. To the question that was asked by Mr. Storseth about whether there is any evidence of this, the clear and unequivocal answer is yes, just go to your government and get it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

Thank you.

Mr. Bruinooge.

[Rod Bruinooge, Conservative, Winnipeg South, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Martin, I just have to go back to some of your comments relating to verbal commitments, and I just have to point out that if you're making a deal with the Liberal government, clearly you're going to need more than that; it's not how we settle land claims and it's not how we settle treaties. It's important for all parties involved that they're signed, so the government has a tangible document to point to.

I'd like to talk a bit about your promising $5 billion on the eve of the election. The Canadian Taxpayers Federation tallied up about $24 billion in promises that were supposed to come out of the untabulated surplus from the coming budget. How could you possibly have come through on all of those promises?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

Well, first of all, as Mr. Goodale has said, the $5 billion was fully costed and was built into the framework. The numbers we provided were based on that assumption. The promises we made during the election campaign were all promises that took into account the government's cashflow, and may I simply say to you that the Minister of Finance, Mr. Flaherty, announced not that long ago the last Liberal surplus, which happened to be $13 billion.

[Rod Bruinooge, Conservative, Winnipeg South, MB]

Mr. Martin, it's not a Liberal surplus; it's a surplus of the taxpayers of Canada, the people who work hard each day and who pay tax to our government. It's truly not your money; it's not our money.

But I'd actually like to go back to your time as finance minister during the nineties. Why did you leave funding for aboriginal groups capped at 2% throughout your term, when you knew full well the population was exploding?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

Let me just say two things. First of all, there is no doubt those surpluses are Canadian surpluses, which belong to the people of Canada. There is no doubt that the remarkable turnaround that took place in the financial condition of this country over the last decade was because Canadians worked together, and what that shows is that when Canadians work together, they can accomplish great things. No other country has been able to do what we did as a nation over the course of the last 10 years in taking huge deficits into surpluses.

What we're saying now in the case of Kelowna is that it's the ability to work together as a nation towards very clear objectives that will allow us to take on anything. If we can go from having the worst financial condition of any G7 country to having the best in the course of a decade, then surely to heaven we can deal with the issues of aboriginal disease, life expectancy and infant mortality, by working together. That's what we're saying.

[Rod Bruinooge, Conservative, Winnipeg South, MB]

Mr. Martin, unfortunately you left it until the last moment of your political career in order to be able to expend all your political capital through the nineties on other measures. It wasn't until the last second that you decided to point to the aboriginal people, people who needed it, and—

[Paul Martin, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

That's absolute nonsense.

[Rod Bruinooge, Conservative, Winnipeg South, MB]

Mr. Martin, I'd like to ask you this. Perhaps you could explain to us why you didn't look at the system itself through which benefits flow to aboriginal people. Instead of just throwing dollars at the problem, you could perhaps have worked with a former colleague on the first nations governance act, but instead you let that die and you didn't want to pursue it.

But, Mr. Martin, I'd like to ask you a question about a quote I've recently read in this interesting book. You were quoted in this interesting book, The Way It Works: Inside Ottawa:

Mr. Martin always argued vigorously - even at times of budget surpluses - against the prime minister's support for...increase in foreign aid. One day as we sat in the living room at 24 Sussex, Martin...told the prime minister in all seriousness that because many aboriginal Canadians live in third world conditions, federal spending on aboriginals should be counted as the equivalent of foreign aid! But when Chrétien then suggested increasing the budget for aboriginals, the finance minister argued that enough was already being spent.

Did you say that?

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

There are only 30 seconds.

[Paul Martin, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

Okay, then let me just deal with the first part and the second part.

Throwing money at a situation? Was $300 million for the healing fund, $2 billion for the residential schools, throwing money at something? I don't think so.

[Rod Bruinooge, Conservative, Winnipeg South, MB]

The system itself needed to be improved. You neglected that.

[Paul Martin, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

That was money we directed to a very real problem that had to be dealt with, and I feel very proud of the $300 million and the $2 billion. I feel very proud of aboriginal head start program. I feel very proud of a number of measures that were taken over the course of the last decade.

[Rod Bruinooge, Conservative, Winnipeg South, MB]

The system wasn't working.

[Paul Martin, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

And I feel very proud that a year and a half before Kelowna took place, the first action of this government was to put in place that system.