Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Nov. 28th, 2006

[Yvon Lévesque, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Good morning. I am pleased to see you here today.

I was a tad angry about a particular point in the last presentation. So, I'll take this opportunity to ask you a question on the matter right away. I will, however, need some clarifications, and I will also have other questions to ask.

It says there is a $500 million fund over 10 years to counteract the potential socio-economic effects of the gas project. Instead of taking money from budget envelopes already allocated to first nations groups, couldn't we have, or couldn't we still, get the companies which are going to develop the land to commit to finding solutions to the problems they may cause and deal with any hazards? That is my first question.

My second point concerns an item which no longer seems to be included in the budget: the Inuit Relations Secretariat. I don't know what's happened to it, but it's nowhere to be found.

I can see that you are allocating $13.3 million more to food programs. This program is only available to a couple of villages. A request has already been made to broaden the program because, in the villages where it is available, it has been profitable and beneficial for those persons who have taken advantage of it. If we prevent other communities from benefiting from it, it will be akin to discriminating against them. It has been estimated that it would cost $130 million to extend this program to every Inuit community in both Nunavik and Nunavut. I am wondering what progress has been made on that front.

[Michael Wernick]

If I may, I will answer your questions in reverse order.

According to the information I have, more than 140 communities are eligible for the program and approximately 90 of these communities receive support. We are in the midst of reviewing the merits of this program and addressing some of the issues raised during community consultations. We hope to be able to renew the program by March 31. The votes which appear in the supplementary estimates serve to enhance funding so that we can fulfil our obligations and deliver the program for the remainder of the fiscal year.

The Inuit Relations Secretariat is led by Mr. Piseolak Pfeiffer. The secretariat works very well. Annual operating costs amount to $3 million and are assumed by the department. The secretariat works in close collaboration with a variety of Inuit organizations. It is a part of our structure and our executive committee.

You raised a policy question. Regulatory review is under way. the Joint Review Panel is going over all of the environmental and socio-economic aspects of the proposal. Private companies that wish to move ahead with the project are being questioned on all related aspects. The project can be strengthened by taking into consideration the impact on communities.

All communities and aboriginal organizations take part in the regulatory process, thanks to our funding. In the previous budget, the government set up a fund to assess the potential socio-economic impact. As the minister said, we will not be able to access these funds if the Mackenzie gas project is not realized; however, we have created the necessary structure to act quickly once a regulatory decision has been made.

[Yvon Lévesque, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Instead of creating a fund to support this structure, why don't private businesses that—

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

We're out of time. We'll move on to the government.

Mr. Blaney, please.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Lévis—Bellechasse, QC]

Good morning. Welcome to our committee. You are regulars here and are familiar with our relaxed atmosphere.

[Michael Wernick]

Such is not always the case in parliamentary committees.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Lévis—Bellechasse, QC]

It is often productive. We can enjoy ourselves and be productive both at the same time.

I wish to focus on first nations' economic development. The minister said that he hoped to see the Rescol and Aboriginal Business Canada programs transferred to the Department of Indian Affairs.

Firstly, can you remind us of the respective goals of these two programs, and in particular that of Rescol? To what extent will bringing these programs back to the department benefit the first nations? What budgetary envelopes have been allocated to these two programs, envelopes that will be transferred to the Department of Indian Affairs?

If you have some time left, I would like you to talk to us about negotiations. I would especially like to hear your comments on the economic aspect of the negotiations.

[Michael Wernick]

Perhaps one of my colleagues can provide you with details on community economic development.

As for the minister's announcement on the restructuring which is to come into effect on December 1, this is a structural decision that will have no direct financial impact.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

Please begin again.

[Michael Wernick]

The current program falls under the purview of the minister and of myself. It will remain intact. Nobody will be transferred and offices will not be relocated. This is a matter of accountability.

This program manages investments worth anywhere between $30 to $35 million per year. This is not an enormous amount, but the program is very useful because it provides a direct link with the aboriginal business community. Therefore, the program funds fairly significant projects.

The difference—which perhaps explains the internal division—is that this program is “pan-aboriginal”. The program does not draw any distinction between the Indians, the Inuit or the Metis. This program is for all aboriginal business people. In the past, the department tried to attract mostly the first nations living on reserves. But as you can see, the department is becoming increasingly “pan-aboriginal”.

Effective immediately, one single manager will have access to all of our tools. It is true, as the lady was saying, that there have been internal budget cutbacks. We do not have many resources for economic development. I hope people have more resources in upcoming budgets. We are beginning by consolidating what we do have. We are going to develop interesting ideas to put to the government and hope that we will obtain more funding in the future.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Lévis—Bellechasse, QC]

More specifically though, can you talk to me about the Rescol program and what it is about?

[Michael Wernick]

The Rescol educational website is a program that was first set up approximately 10 years ago. I do not recall the exact date. The program is aimed at making various facets of Canadian society more accessible through the Internet.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Lévis—Bellechasse, QC]

Therefore, for the entire community of—

[Michael Wernick]

There had been programs to finance Internet access for schools, community centres, and the volunteer sector, etc. There is still much to be done in the reserves and isolated communities. Perhaps satellite technology will accelerate things.

Therefore, this program is for access to the Internet. It pays for connection fees, computers, and an Internet account.

To my mind, it is logical that this program be a part of the education sector. It is quite clear that we have to continue connecting aboriginal communities to the Internet.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Lévis—Bellechasse, QC]

Are Aboriginal Business Canada and Rescol the only two programs to benefit from department funding? Does the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development contribute to economic development through other budget envelopes?

[Michael Wernick]

Actually, these programs represent an increase. We have basic programs. If memory serves me correctly, there is about $100 million.

The problem that I foresee is one of scale. We have very useful programs relative to planning, developing business files, small projects, etc. These programs create winning conditions in several communities. The department is lacking resources, like many other departments. Significant projects involving tens or hundreds of millions of dollars really need to be funded. The ideas are not lacking, but how can they be put into practice? Currently, we are working on small and medium-sized projects.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Lévis—Bellechasse, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

Mr. Wernick, I'll turn to Ms. Crowder for her last question.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Thank you for coming today. There are a couple of things I want to clarify that the minister had talked about.

My understanding is that the B.C. Treaty Commission process now has funding until 2009? Okay, because on page 48 of the main estimates there's no future-year funding, and that was my concern.

I have a general comment on consistency of information. I find it quite challenging that year over year information isn't presented in the same way. This is just a general comment. This is a bigger problem throughout the government. It's very difficult. We're often comparing apples to oranges, so it makes it very difficult to assess where real spending is happening and where cuts are happening.

I want to come back to the issue of consolidation. You talked about consolidation around economic development, and I'd specifically ask a question with respect to the aboriginal friendship centre program, which is currently under Heritage. I wasn't clear from the minister--and you may not be able to answer this--whether or not he fully supports the business case that the friendship centres have put forward to increase their funding because they serve over one million urban aboriginals.

My question is more specifically whether there is a philosophical approach to consolidating programs across ministries that impact on aboriginal peoples into INAC. The minister talked specifically about the urban aboriginal strategy, and I'm not clear whether there's an anticipated renewal, but he was speaking very positively about that.

So the question is, is there an effort towards consolidation? How does the aboriginal friendship centre program fit into that? Is there department support for the aboriginal friendship centre program?

[Michael Wernick]

The first comment I'd have to make is that these kinds of decisions about the so-called machinery of government are the Prime Minister's to take, in terms of what goes under which portfolio and which department.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

So you're not aware of any effort towards consolidation?

[Michael Wernick]

There has been a trend towards that, and I think the committee's views on which way to go would probably be very helpful to the government. The flavour of the 1990s was to try to move aboriginal programming out into other departments precisely to avoid them being ghettoized in one department, so that there were then health programs, training programs, housing in other departments. It's the reason Aboriginal Business Canada was at Industry Canada. The idea was to sensitize other departments so that they didn't just dump aboriginals or first nations issues on INAC.

Since then, there have been a lot of things drifting back into our department.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

You know I only have limited time, so I apologize for interjecting.

I'm not advocating for or against consolidation. If it's happening, I think it's an appropriate place to have meaningful consultation with the first nations, Métis, and Inuit groups across this country, if that is going to be the trend. My concern would be that these decisions are being made without appropriate consultation.

[Michael Wernick]

What has happened, case by case, is we have picked up the Métis issues when the Office of the Federal Interlocutor was moved by the previous government into our portfolio. We've created an Inuit Relations Secretariat, and so on. The people most affected were consulted on every one of those steps, one by one. And on the economic development transfer issue, this is an issue we discussed extensively with the Assembly of First Nations and others, and as the minister said, the feedback he keeps getting is that generally first nations leaders--I won't talk about Inuit and Métis--are attracted to the idea of bringing the tools under one portfolio. But I wouldn't say there's a consistent pattern. There is a lot of aboriginal programming that's outside of INAC, and frankly, I don't think it would be a good idea for us to try to be good at being the health department or to do CMHC's job in housing and so on.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

So in that context, do you know what's happening with the ARDA agreements then? They're up for renewal.