Evidence of meeting #36 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was aboriginal.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Socio-economic Policy and Regional Operations, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
I came into the department in November, after Kelowna. I've been dealing with the interactions that we have with the first nations as we are today.
As Marc was here, Marc will answer.
Marc Brooks Director General, Community Development Branch, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Sure. Thank you, Mr. Bagnell, I'll do my best to provide an answer.
As you know, under budget 2006, $300 million was for housing for the north, $300 million for off-reserve. Under the same budget, $450 million was for various activities, including housing. Potable drinking water was covered under that, and—
Director General, Community Development Branch, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
For housing, I believe the total figure was $1.6 billion. My colleagues can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that was the figure.
Liberal
Larry Bagnell Liberal Yukon, YT
My question was not about all those things that were provided. My question was, would Kelowna have helped the situation if that $1.6 billion had gone toward housing?
Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Socio-economic Policy and Regional Operations, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
It's impossible to answer that question.
Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Socio-economic Policy and Regional Operations, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Well, as you've heard others say, money alone will not solve it. It's how the money is spent, what the relationships are, what the programs are, where it goes.
Liberal
Larry Bagnell Liberal Yukon, YT
Thank you.
To the other agencies, do you think $1.6 billion would have been helpful at all?
Vice-President, Assisted Housing, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation
I'll stick with Claire's answer. I think it's quite impossible for us to say what the implications would have been.
Vice-President, Assisted Housing, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation
Money is certainly part of the solution, but I don't believe it's the only part of the solution.
Conservative
Conservative
Conservative
Brian Storseth Conservative Westlock—St. Paul, AB
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
I'd first like to raise a point of order. I didn't want to interrupt the honourable member; I wanted to give him a chance to speak.
The honourable member speaks about this money that's been taken away. I'm just wondering if he could clarify that for the record, or if he has any facts and figures on the exact dollar amount. If not, perhaps he could get them to us.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Colin Mayes
I would prefer that the committee direct questions to the witnesses. This debate can be done either on the floor of the House or else in private. We're here to get the resources from the witnesses we have present.
Conservative
Brian Storseth Conservative Westlock—St. Paul, AB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you very much for coming forward today. Obviously it was very interesting and it's a very pertinent topic for our communities.
First of all, I want to apologize for the political gamesmanship that inevitably seems to occur in these halls any time a television camera is pointed on people, especially opposition members who are largely ineffectual in moving government.
You said 30% of the need could be addressed using market solutions. Do we have any measurable results from within communities that are currently utilizing this to see what results we've had, or is the program too new at this point in time?
Vice-President, Assisted Housing, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation
Perhaps I can talk about some of the successes.
There are a number of bands out there--MBQ in Southern Ontario, the Kahnawake in Quebec--that actually have, through revolving funds and private sector funding and arrangements that they've worked out with banks.... The MBQ would have a home ownership rate better than the Canadian average. They'd be over 80%. There are serious, real successes out there, and that's why, frankly, we see a lot of potential for the market solutions. It will not be the answer for every reserve in every situation, but we do believe there are real opportunities. When you look at those types of successes like Kahnawake, MBQ, Six Nations, you'll see they have better home ownership rates than the average in Canada.
Conservative
Brian Storseth Conservative Westlock—St. Paul, AB
That leads me to the question of what we need to do to facilitate this program in other communities where it would be equally as effective.
Vice-President, Assisted Housing, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation
The challenge is getting the funding onto reserve, and as I said in my earlier answer, we're looking at arrangements so that we can find ways within the Indian Act, which does not allow a private sector lender, for example, to take the asset. It is communal land; you can't take the asset. The Indian Act also protects the band member from their personal covenants, so a lender couldn't take a judgment, for example, if they defaulted. Those are the challenges under the Indian Act, and that's why different arrangements are being explored.
I think everybody wants to respect the communal nature of the land. I don't think anyone wants an arrangement that doesn't respect that. But we want to find tools and innovations that allow the private sector to lend and be comfortable flowing funds--something like the CMHC pilot where there's a risk-sharing arrangement that we work out with the band. We hold some dollars off-reserve and allow a lender to act as if this is just like not being on-reserve. They don't worry; they're now covered in terms of mortgage insurance like in any other lending.
It's also why there are major banks in this country that even without CMHC insurance are looking at ways to do this. There are business opportunities here. The Assembly of First Nations, as I said, would say it's around 30%. It's not proven. We don't know; we would have to see over time. But there's a real interest in trying to facilitate those types of mechanisms, and frankly, I think it's going to end up being a range of tools, and not in every community. This is just not going to work in an isolated community of 20 band members. The idea is that to make this work, you really have to create a market-like situation, so that if in Six Nations or MBQ someone defaults, there is somebody else in the marketplace who is willing to take on that house, take on that responsibility. They are really working to create market-like situations on-reserve. That's where it will make a difference for the market.
I don't think anybody at this table would suggest that those market solutions are going to work in every community. It isn't going to work.
Conservative
Brian Storseth Conservative Westlock—St. Paul, AB
One of the tools the average homeowner utilizes when buying a home, as you talked about, is mortgage insurance. Did you indicate the percentage of first nations homeowners who are utilizing mortgage insurance?
Vice-President, Assisted Housing, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation
It's marginal. We call it section 10, the ministerial loan guarantee program. Last year we did about 170 loans--very small numbers. In terms of the private lender examples I gave you, while I don't have access to their numbers, anecdotally, from when I talk to lenders, altogether I would suggest there may be 400 a year under those types of arrangements. So it's very small.
Conservative
Brian Storseth Conservative Westlock—St. Paul, AB
So that's 400 in comparison to what overall number?