Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Feb. 13th, 2007

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

Thank you.

Can we move to the government side and Mr. Blaney, please?

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Lévis—Bellechasse, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I would like to welcome our witnesses, who are being subjected to a public pillorying today.

Mr. Chairman, I agree with Mr. Lemay and Ms. Crowder when they say that housing for aboriginals is unacceptable. I think we knew that before we undertook the last study. I became aware of it, as did Mr. Brooks, when we participated in the First Nations Socio-economic Forum in Mashteuiatsh, Quebec. At that forum, we concluded that there was a crying need for housing. I share that concern.

However, what I disagree with, colleagues, is the fact that this morning we have made a huge mistake: we have shot the messengers. Responsibility for housing is first and foremost political. If Ms. Dansereau was not in her position in 1993, the Bloc Québécois was in Parliament in 1994. The main responsibility of political parties is to solve problems and to assign public servants their proper role.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

You were in power at the time.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Lévis—Bellechasse, QC]

This is a political responsibility, Mr. Lemay, and I will not allow you to treat public servants in such a cavalier way. They are simply carrying out the mandate given to them by the government. Your behaviour is unacceptable. I believe this behaviour is unacceptable in the House. I think this deserves an apology.

That said...

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

The chair doesn't disagree, Mr. Blaney, but could you just form a question for the--

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Lévis—Bellechasse, QC]

It did me good to raise that, Mr. Chairman.

You talked about solutions, Ms. Dansereau. I think there are things that can be done. I would also like to say that the solution is not simply to invest money. I have seen progress in these communities. I have worked with the communities from 2001 to 2006. I have seen progress in infrastructure, the treatment of drinking water, in schools, community centres, health care centres, etc. Progress is being made in these communities. We should not simply disregard everything that has been done, but the challenge is considerable, and I think it is one we must meet together. So let us find some solutions, rather than just identifying problems.

One of the problems is that it is not good enough to merely inject funding into the community. We must also ensure that the funds are invested properly to maintain good quality housing. I think this is something that has not been done in the past, and for which new solutions are required. That was one of the conclusions of the Mashteuiatsch forum.

I come now to my question. In your opinion, what are the obstacles to having good quality housing in the communities? How can we get out of this cycle, which has been identified by my colleagues, and which we acknowledge? You talked about the possibility of ownership, improving the maintenance of housing, and support for private investment. I would like you to talk a little about possible solutions you see that would break this cycle because, as you have demonstrated, the needs are growing as the population changes.

Thank you.

[Claire Dansereau]

Thank you for your question. I will try to answer in part, and I will give my colleague from the CMHC an opportunity to answer as well.

There is a great deal of talk about collective solutions, solutions in partnership with the aboriginal communities themselves, because, as we said, the communities are all different and they have somewhat different visions. Of course, we work closely with the AFN, the Assembly of First Nations, and with the APNQL, the Assemblée des Premières Nations du Québec et du Labrador, to find solutions that are culturally acceptable. We can consider market solutions, solutions in the area of collective appropriations, but it will be mainly by working with the aboriginal people themselves that we will come up with the solutions.

It should be said that capacity, education, working together to... For example, if we are talking about mould, you will see in the strategy that much of the solution lies in education: why does the mould exist? What is being done to prevent it from happening? And for each of the issues, we are working to educate the first nations people and to have them assume responsibility for these matters.

Earlier, someone asked what the greatest challenge is. I think there are several challenges: first, the demographic explosion, as we said; next, there are often distance problems. We are talking about small communities that are very remote, so how can we ensure that the housing will be built properly, that people will comply with building codes? These questions have many aspects, and that is why we are working very hard with the First Nations communities themselves. It becomes a shared responsibility, because we will not always be there on a daily basis, and it is up to them to make these decisions. There are no easy answers. I wish there were, but that is not the case.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Lévis—Bellechasse, QC]

Perhaps the CMHC has thought about new types of funding for these properties. Some representatives from Statistics Canada came and told us that private housing is in poorer condition than community housing. That surprised me somewhat, because that is the direction in which we are supposed to head. I would like to hear your views on this.

[Sharon Matthews]

I'm not surprised, in terms of the comment, that some of the privately built housing may be in worse shape than some of the programmed housing that you get in the system. I think that's because, certainly with the specialized programs that CMHC has on-reserve, we make sure that we work with the community. We do inspections as the building is being built. We have accountability frameworks in place to ensure that the first nation builds to code. Our programs are designed in such as way that there's ongoing funding to facilitate the maintenance and the upkeep. So for us, it's a critical component of our programs to ensure the ability to keep that housing in good shape.

As I said to an answer earlier, we do see that funding from the private sector is going to be key to addressing the issues in the long term. There are opportunities through the different arrangements that we've been looking at to try to facilitate that money coming onto reserve to help upgrade housing there.

I think the AFN would suggest that maybe as much as 30% of the need on-reserve could be addressed through market solutions, and so we're actively talking to them in terms of what can be done. If you could address 30% of those and allow the types of funding that CMHC provides INAC and others, and make sure it's helping those in need, that could really make a dent in terms of solutions going forward. This is one area that we really are exploring, and we're trying to find ways to facilitate the private sector getting money onto the reserves.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Lévis—Bellechasse, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

Over to the Liberals now.

Mr. Bagnell, please, for five minutes.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Thank you.

Thank you all for coming. As bureaucrats, I'm sure you're doing the best you can with the resources and the direction you've been given. Thank you for your efforts.

To Ms. Dansereau, in the last budget I believe there was money set aside for aboriginal housing in the north, in the three territories. Can you tell me how much that was?

[Claire Dansereau]

It was $300 million.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

That was for aboriginal housing in the three territories?

[Claire Dansereau]

The northern territories?

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Yes.

[Claire Dansereau]

I'm sorry, I'm not responsible for the north, so I don't have those answers ready or at hand. But it was for northern housing.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Yes--for aboriginal people.

[Claire Dansereau]

I think it was general northern housing.

[Sharon Matthews]

Perhaps I can jump in here.

There was $300 million for the north, the territories; there was also $300 million for off-reserve; and then $800 million, for general affordable, went to the provinces and territories.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

But that was for aboriginal housing in the north, was it?

[Sharon Matthews]

It wasn't actually directed necessarily to aboriginal, but clearly the Inuit make up a significant component of the population in the north and, as such, certainly stand to benefit significantly from the $300 million trust.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

On May 3 the Minister of Indian Affairs, when asked what he'd done for aboriginal Canadians, said, “Aboriginal Canadian are real winners.... We have provided...$300 million for northern housing...”.

[Claire Dansereau]

The northern people have just told me the answer: there was $300 million for the north, and aboriginals make up the majority of the population in the north.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Okay. The minister kept saying it was for aboriginal people.

The reason I'm asking is that $17 million, a good huge chunk of it, has been taken away from what the aboriginal people thought they were going to get. But I don't want to dwell on that now; I've got my answer.

My question is on solutions, and I'd like each of the agencies to answer this.

Now, you might be doing good, and making great improvement, but as all four parties have said, there's this dismal situation of housing. There's a huge gap that's totally unacceptable, almost third world in some conditions. So a lot of work needs to be done. As part of solving that problem, we saw during the Kelowna accord some bottom-up solutions. We asked the aboriginal people about the major problems in Canada. Housing was one, and they came up with solutions. Remarkably, the premiers and the federal government and the first nations leaders came together with a package for housing.

To each of the agencies here, if that package were implemented, would it help, or how would it help, the housing situation in aboriginal communities in Canada?