Evidence of meeting #36 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was aboriginal.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Rod Bruinooge Conservative Winnipeg South, MB
Do you think, though, it's one of the barriers that face first nations individuals--the fact that they can't achieve legal status for the sake of lending? Is that, in your opinion, one of the reasons it's so difficult to obtain credit on-reserve?
Vice-President, Assisted Housing, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation
Certainly one of the challenges under the Indian Act, as I explained earlier, is that as a band member, you're protected under the Indian Act. Someone off-reserve, a mortgage insurer like CMHC or a lender, cannot get a judgment against you in terms of going after your income or any assets you hold on-reserve. As well, given that the land is held communally, you have no legal rights to the land. Clearly that is a challenge, and it explains why private sector financing is limited on-reserve, because everyone has to take a look at that. When you're lending off-reserve, you rely on the fact that if you fail to pay your mortgage, lenders can go to the courts and say they want a judgment against this individual, and they are responsible, and they can go after garnished wages and go after the assets.
When that's not available, you're really looking at a completely different lending structure, and that's why everyone is so keen about looking at the mechanisms without taking away from what the Indian Act is trying to accomplish. And it respects the communal nature of the land. I don't think there are many first nations out there that want to see the land given up, so if you're a member on-reserve and you default, they don't want to see that land being taken off the reserve, for obvious reasons. It is a real challenge in terms of what kinds of mechanisms you can set up to get around it. In business terms I'd call it a credit enhancer.
Some other mechanism needs to be in place. CMHC's pilot is one, which is a trust held off-reserve, but there will be others, and I think there are a lot of private sector lenders--us, the AFN, individual communities--all looking at the business arrangements they can make to respect the situation in terms of the Indian Act, but to make some changes and find a way for private capital to flow.
Conservative
Rod Bruinooge Conservative Winnipeg South, MB
I don't have too much more, Mr. Chair. I'll ask one more question of the department on the topic of communal ownership.
If a community owns the land, can the community choose to sell it if there is unanimity, or is it impossible?
Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Socio-economic Policy and Regional Operations, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
The community can, through a band council resolution, provide long-term leases. I don't think the community, in and of itself....
If it was fee simple land, yes. If it was reserve land, I don't think so.
You can sell the reserve land?
Assistant Deputy Minister, Office of the Federal Interlocutor, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
There are provisions in the Indian Act that allow for the sale. It has to be approved by a certain percentage of the community as a whole, not just a band. So it's possible to sell reserve land, but it does take a fairly significant majority of community members to do that.
Conservative
Rod Bruinooge Conservative Winnipeg South, MB
Are there any bands in Canada currently selling land to members for the sake of setting up individual properties for houses?
Assistant Deputy Minister, Office of the Federal Interlocutor, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
The problem is, once the land is sold, it's no longer reserve land, so if it's sold, even to an Indian individual, it loses its status as reserve land. Normally they make arrangements short of a sale so the land remains within a reserve base. But it's certainly possible to alienate land to individual members.
Liberal
Todd Russell Liberal Labrador, NL
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I appreciate your coming here today.
No doubt I could echo many of the sentiments expressed by my colleagues on this side of the table concerning the crisis in housing. I've been in many in Labrador where the conditions are deplorable; waiting lists are long for housing. We're all trying to find a way out of it. It seems to me we're always in a catch-up position and the only way to catch up is if we have an accelerated approach. In general, I would think that is the type of management we must have here in terms of an accelerated approach and accelerated investment in order to catch up. That's a general comment.
I have some specific questions. Were housing trusts ever set up for the northern housing initiative and the off-reserve housing initiative? In the budget documents and in your presentation, Ms. Dansereau, there were housing trusts.
Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Socio-economic Policy and Regional Operations, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
As I said in my statement, there was $300 million devoted to a housing trust for the north.
Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Socio-economic Policy and Regional Operations, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Yes, it was administered by the provinces off-reserve.
Liberal
Todd Russell Liberal Labrador, NL
Can you explain the mechanism? You have housing trusts established, and then the money is disbursed from the trusts out to the various provinces and territories. Is that how it works?
Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Socio-economic Policy and Regional Operations, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Yes, and it was then managed by CMHC--
Vice-President, Assisted Housing, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation
Actually, perhaps I can help my colleague. The three trusts were negotiated between the Department of Finance federally and the departments of finance in the provinces and territories. Those arrangements are outside of anything that INAC or CMHC would do.
I can say that in the 2006 budget there was $300 million set up for off-reserve housing. That was a trust set up and shared among the provinces and territories. Another $300 million trust was set up for northern. Of that one, I know off the top that $200 million went to Nunavut and another $50 million and $50 million went to NWT and Yukon. In addition, there was an $800 million trust set up for affordable housing in general in that budget, and that went again to the provinces.
Liberal
Todd Russell Liberal Labrador, NL
So each province and territory now has an allocation of housing money, is that right?
Vice-President, Assisted Housing, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation
That's my understanding, yes.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Office of the Federal Interlocutor, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
I'd like to clarify, Mr. Russell, that the trust was just a mechanism to transfer the money from the federal government at that time. The provinces could draw down from that trust for the housing purposes. It was the mechanism that had to be utilized to get the money out of it, as opposed to there being a direct payment to the province.
Liberal
Todd Russell Liberal Labrador, NL
So what kind of disbursement guidelines were in place? What kind of accountability measures were in place, or are there any in terms of drawing down? Does the province have to comply with any type of guidelines? Do they have to meet any type of work plan commitments? What's there?
Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Socio-economic Policy and Regional Operations, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Regarding these questions, unfortunately, we know the numbers, but the measures around them are all managed by the Department of Finance, so I think you'll get better answers by questioning those officials.
Liberal
Todd Russell Liberal Labrador, NL
Were there any specific dollars allocated for Métis-specific housing initiatives or programs?
Assistant Deputy Minister, Office of the Federal Interlocutor, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
No, the transfer was a general one of the money, but it was for aboriginal housing, so it was meant to be inclusive of first nations, Inuit, and Métis.
Liberal
Todd Russell Liberal Labrador, NL
There is a distinct difference between what Kelowna offered when there was Métis-specific housing in Kelowna and this general disbursement that's going down.
Can we get the Department of Finance to respond? Are you aware of any guidelines or accountability measures in place?
Assistant Deputy Minister, Office of the Federal Interlocutor, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
We can get clarification on this for you, but as I understand it, it's an unconditional transfer, so that once the money's transferred to the provinces--and the federal government has stated that it is certainly the federal government's volition that it be used for that purpose--we have no enforcement mechanism. So how the money gets employed is their decision .
Now, having said that, I think some of them have already started discussions with the aboriginal housing organizations in the provinces to try to make decisions on how that money is to be spent. So in terms of how the provinces are using the money, you would really have to ask them, but at this point they're still in the early stages, I think, in most cases.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Colin Mayes
Maybe if the committee wants, we could ask the department to supply us with the guidelines in the trust, as far as those transfers to the provinces go.
I think they didn't trust the provinces to spend it specifically for aboriginal housing, so they've obviously attached some sort of strings to make sure that when they transfer that money, it's going to be used for aboriginal housing. Is that not correct? I don't mean all of it, but that designated for aboriginal housing.