Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on May 10th, 2006

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

Okay.

Ms. Crowder, did you have something else?

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Just on the agenda item, it would be helpful, if we were going to have this priority list submitted, for the subcommittee to look at that in advance of the meeting. It's just a scheduling matter.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

Okay, we'll take note of that with regard to a meeting of the subcommittee to review the priority list. We'll make sure we get those in to the clerk as quickly as possible.

If we're going to deal with this at the next meeting, which is Monday of next week, we should set a time for that committee to sit and review these priorities. What's the pleasure of the committee?

Mr. Albrecht.

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

Mr. Chairman, one of my concerns on this committee is the amount of time we spend in deciding what to do and in posturing. Even this regrettable matter of the chair, I think, has really sidetracked us from what our mandate is, which is to work with our aboriginal and Métis and Inuit people.

I think we've charged the committee with a duty to come with the agenda they bring to the committee, and I think we should just get on with it instead of spending more time here.

We've asked our staff people to come today and do some briefing sessions with us, and again on Monday, and I think we're losing important time. We've already been three weeks, and really, what do we have to show for it?

I know the members of this committee agree that we want to work on behalf of our aboriginal brothers and sisters, and I'm certainly committed to doing that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

Jean.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

As a final point, we don't need to take up this committee's time setting up meeting times for the subcommittee.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

Right.

The subcommittee will review the priorities and then bring back the list of which ones were a top priority by the members. So we will do that.

Maybe those on the committee would just make it known to the clerk when they're available, and he can arrange to have us come together before Monday. Okay?

[Rod Bruinooge, Conservative, Winnipeg South, MB]

Mr. Chair, I'll recommend that we proceed with the department briefing.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

All agreed?

Okay, thank you.

So we have the department briefing. We have Daniel Ricard, senior assistant deputy minister, policy and strategic direction; Sandra Ginnish, director general, treaties, research, international and general equality branch; Eric Guimond, director, strategic research and analysis directorate.

Welcome to the committee.

Mr. Lemay.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Mr. Chairman, before giving the floor to our esteemed guests, I just want to check that we are giving ourselves until tomorrow evening to send our lists to the clerk. Is everybody in agreement? We have until tomorrow evening, that is to say, until Thursday evening. Afterwards, the clerk will contact us. Do not wait until Friday, it will be too late.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

Is that all understood by the committee? The list of priorities has to be in by tomorrow night.

Who's going to lead off?

Mr. Ricard, welcome.

[Daniel Ricard, A/Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Policy and Strategic Direction, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development]

Mr. Chairman, ladies and gentlemen, on behalf of the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development, it is our pleasure to acquiesce to your request that we appear before you this afternoon to provide you with an overview of aboriginal demographics.

Without any further ado, with your permission, I would like to ask Eric Guimond to make the presentation that we have prepared for this meeting.

[Eric Guimond, A/Director, Strategic Research and Analysis Directorate, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development]

Thank you for inviting us to present you with our research on the demographic aspects of aboriginal populations today.

I would like to introduce to you my colleague Sacha Senécal, who has a doctorate in social and Mohawk psychology, and who will help me with the technical aspect of the presentation.

To my right and left are the French and English versions of my presentation. We have also brought printed material and several other documents related to the presentation.

Before I start, I would like to make a suggestion. It's going to become quite clear very early in the presentation that this is about data, a lot of data. I suggest that when there are questions that we deal with the questions as they arise, rather than wait, because there are lots of topics that are going to be covered, and if we wait until the end, it becomes difficult to backtrack to certain of these topics. That would be a suggestion on my part.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

I'll try to pay attention to the committee and the screen at the same time so I can see the hands.

[Eric Guimond]

As I mentioned, there are many topics, and the ones we will be discussing today are just a few that I've selected, based on invitation. Many of them are quite basic but fundamental.

First we're going to talk about the aboriginal people and the standard information on definitions, size, age structure, and geographical distribution--very useful but fundamental. Also fundamental but basic is information on population growth and components of that growth. Finally, about half of the presentation focuses on the well-being of the aboriginal peoples.

The Constitution recognizes three groups: Indians or first nations, Métis, and Inuit. The Indian population could be subdivided into two groups. Status Indians or registered Indians are those individuals who are eligible under the Indian Act. Then you have the non-status population, which consists of individuals who self-identify as Indians or first nations but are not eligible to be registered under the Indian Act.

The Métis are persons who have mixed ancestry but have also developed their own customs. Their identity and customs are recognized as separate from Indian and Inuit.

Finally are the Inuit, or persons whose ancestry can be traced back to the original inhabitants of the Arctic.

I just want to point out two aspects of identity that are implied in this definition. There's an aspect of self-identification, but there's also a notion of recognition by others--other communities and government. So there are two aspects that are part of one person's aboriginal identity.

Now these definitions, groups, and boundaries are clear-cut, but the reality is far more complex. In this diagram, each box represents a particular dimension. Statistics Canada uses four concepts to measure the notion of aboriginality. These concepts are aboriginal ancestry, aboriginal identity, status Indian or registration, and a fourth one that is not represented here, first nation band membership. The only reason it's not represented here is because when you deal with four dimensions, it's difficult to represent that on a plane. So each box, each colour, represents a dimension.

In everyday thinking, we like to approach things in very distinct, clear-cut categories and boundaries. As is illustrated here, individuals don't necessarily display the three dimensions of ancestry, identity, and status. Some have one dimension, some have two, and some have three. In the case of aboriginal ancestry, there are 1.3 million individuals according to the 2001 census, and this number should grow with the census that's going to happen next week.

The aboriginal identity category shows just a little below one million. The status Indian category shows a bit more than half a million.

The subsets are not symmetrical either. The one that includes the three dimensions is the largest, with around half a million people. Then you have subsets that are really small, like the one with 8,775 individuals. Those are individuals who only have legal status as Indians, but no ancestry or identity. Some might find that confusing and awkward. The previous version of the Indian Act allowed non-first nation women who married first nation men to acquire legal status, so most likely those women are represented here.

Here I'm only talking about aboriginal ancestry and aboriginal identity. I could have broken it down further into three ancestries, three identities, and different combinations. When we start really digging into these ideas of boundaries and definitions, we find out that it's a very complex and dynamic concept. I just want to illustrate here that we're not dealing with clear-cut definitions and boundaries.

How will this translate in your work? Sometimes you'll see numbers about the population, and the next document you read contains another number. Then you start getting confused about all these different numbers because very often they relate to different concepts. So I want to alert you to that situation.

Yes?

[Nancy Karetak-Lindell, Liberal, Nunavut, NU]

On the note on the side it says some individuals can belong to more than one dimension. Are you counting them only once in this?

[Eric Guimond]

Yes.

When a demographer such as myself looks at old reports and sees all these definitions coexisting...I've noticed over the last ten years that there's been some convergence around one particular definition, especially in the context of programming. It's what we call a blended definition. It's the numbers StatsCan has been releasing for the 2001 census and will be releasing again. It's a definition that blends the notion of identity, registration, legality, and also the first nations band membership. Based on that hybrid definition, we have a little less than a million individuals in 2001, of whom 57% are registered Indian, 27% Métis, about 10% non-status Indian, and less than 5% Inuit.

The other aboriginal category includes those individuals who don't have legal status, do not self-identify, but are band members or have declared multiple aboriginal identity. It's possible to declare being first nation and Métis on the census, so the other aboriginal category is this mixed bag.

[Inky Mark, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB]

Where does Bill C-31 fit?

[Eric Guimond]

Bill C-31 would fall within the registered Indian category.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

I noticed that the source is Stats Canada. Between Stats Canada—identity, registration, band membership.... Is that the compilation of these numbers?

[Eric Guimond]

Based on census data, yes.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

So if people don't have band membership or self-identify, then they're not included?

[Eric Guimond]

Those without membership, registration, or identity are not in that pie chart.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

So that's why there's a difference between the numbers you reported and those that some other aboriginal organizations have reported.

[Eric Guimond]

That's a totally different issue.