Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on May 31st, 2007

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

I want to quickly talk about Bill C-31 and the government's own analysis. They did a cost drivers project, and in their analysis they talked about the potential implication of Bill C-31. They talked about the fact that as more complaints are filed against the injustices of Bill C-31, they could have up to 250,000 complaints.

I would expect that you're looking at that as well, in terms of the potential impact in your own communities about what Bill C-44 could mean for you as chiefs and community members.

[Chief Rose Laboucan]

I was speaking of the woman who is living with the first nation person on reserve. She could file a human rights complaint and win. She could gain that home. She could gain the lot that it's on. It's not my choice. It's not me who wants to split up my first nations land. That is what I'm trying to protect here.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

We'll move on to the government side.

[Rod Bruinooge, Conservative, Winnipeg South, MB]

Can I take a few minutes of Mr. Blaney's time?

I want to go a bit further with the point that Madame Crowder brought up about predicting outcomes of this bill. I think that's the challenge. I talked about that earlier, how it's going to be challenging for us to predict this.

For instance, we can't simulate the people who might feel human rights violations, because they're afraid of coming forward. There are many people across Canada, and we've received communications from some, who are afraid. How can we simulate that? We don't know. In my opinion, there's no bureaucrat who can speculate on that.

We're left in a quandary of trying to ascertain what the outcome is going to be. I have to lean on the side of moving forward and giving the opportunity for these people who are afraid to bring forward their human rights violations. That's the challenge we face.

I just wanted to respond to what she had said.

Go ahead, Mr. Blaney.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Lévis—Bellechasse, QC]

Thank you, parliamentary secretary and Mr. Chairman.

Welcome to all the witnesses.

First of all, Chief Day Walker-Pelletier, I want to congratulate you for your 26 years in political life. Several of my colleagues would love having as long a political career as yours. You can be proud of your success.

I would also like to tell you that we have met with several groups and that the protection of aboriginal rights came up in many of their recommendations, as well as the need to consult.

Chief Day Walker-Pelletier and Ms. Beaudin, you stated that it is extremely important to take account of language and traditions. We are now getting close to clause-by-clause study of the Bill and we were in fact hoping to start that after having heard your testimony. I still hope that we will be able to do so because we want to move forward.

About oral history, I would like to know if there are other issues that you feel should be included in the Bill and in the amendments that might be put forward.

[Chief Marie-Anne Day Walker-Pelletier]

As we stated, it's very important that our traditional values, language, and oral history, which connect us back with our elders and our homelands, are respected and recognized, because that's the foundation of who we are and where we want to be in the future.

In my community, and in the communities of Saskatchewan, without the foundation of our language, culture, and values.... These describe our identity and who we are, that we have collective rights. I have to emphasize that we have collective rights. Everything that we promote and develop in our communities is done in a collective way, and that needs to be respected.

In order to move forward, government needs to recognize and support first nation communities, as I said, in designing and developing their own systems, structures, and governance models, which will be inclusive of all these legislative authorities around them. But the leadership needs to decide that for themselves. It would strengthen; it all has to balance and connect. It has to come from there and move up. So I think that's the process you need to recognize.

Thank you.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Lévis—Bellechasse, QC]

Making sure that it is equality not only under the law but also in reality between the citizens of your community.

Chief Day Walker-Pelletier, if the Bill is passed, what will be the impact on your community? Do you believe the impact will be major or minimal? What would be the impact of the Bill if it were amended in order to protect collective rights?

Chief Laboucan, you may also want to answer this question. I would like you to tell us what would be the impact of the Bill on your communities.

[Chief Marie-Anne Day Walker-Pelletier]

I cannot comment on what the impacts would be. Right now, our communities need to understand what's going to happen with this legislative process. In my community, nobody knows what Bill C-44 is.

What they want to know is, are they going to get proper housing tomorrow? Are we going to have clean water? Are we going to have good sanitation? That's what they want to know. But to connect that to human rights, in our traditional ways of thinking, we've always been keepers of our human rights as first nations people, as community people in our communities. We've always done that through our oral history.

We need to ensure that what's coming from here needs to get to the community, needs to be understood, and needs to be communicated properly. We need to ensure that the understanding from our perspective is also included in how you understand us.

Thank you.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Lévis—Bellechasse, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

Thank you very much, Mr. Blaney.

Thank you very much.

Committee members, we have finished our second round. Do you want to continue on a third round?

Madam Keeper, do you want to have to comment or ask a question?

[Tina Keeper, Liberal, Churchill, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank Chief Day Walker-Pelletier, Chief Laboucan, and Ms. Beaudin for their presentations and I would like to go from what Chief Day Walker just said.

You said what comes from here needs to be understood at the grassroots level, at the community level, but also what we're saying, how we understand things, and what our frameworks are also need to be understood in our minds. I think that's really an important point, because one of the things that I feel.... I would like to also acknowledge, in terms of the treaty relationship, that I too am a descendant of Treaty 9, a direct descendant, and of Treaty 5, and so I understand that treaty relationship very well.

It seems as if there's a facade almost that this bill could somehow ensure human rights in terms of a process, so that you pass a bill and then the human rights will occur.

Aside from the collective rights and knowledge of how we understand rights collectively as first nations people.... That's something that especially people our age or older remember--the time when life was different. We understood it to be for all time almost, that we had a collective right to the land. I know in our community we had one place where we would store the meats, that kind of thing, so that there was a different relationship. Colonization and policy have impacted on our lives in a very detrimental way, and we're trying to rebuild.

In terms of human rights, my sense is that if we're trying to ensure human rights, we need to start to address where those shortfalls are, and you have identified those. You've talked about health issues and the lack of funding for education. You've talked about the elders, the children. I guess what I'm asking is this. Do you think that if what we want to do is ensure human rights, we're going about this in the right way? Do you think there's another place we could start?

[Chief Marie-Anne Day Walker-Pelletier]

I think by starting through this process it is going to trigger the government. What we've been always saying to the government also confirms that there is lack of funding and support systems within our communities, and this tool then is going to describe to the government where the inequities are. It's also going to help us in that way, and I think as communities move forward, they recognize that there are shortfalls but also that there is a responsibility to be equal and to be better with mainstream society. We need proper housing and child and family services agencies working with our children. We need to be at the same par in how our children are managed through the foster care system. If I was a foster parent for my agency, the benefits I would receive through my own agency would be less than if a non-first-nation person was looking after the same children. Again, that's an inequity.

I think this human rights avenue is really going to describe...and it's going to bring government to task, to ensure that there is proper funding in place. It has to go back to resources.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

Are there any further questions? Does the government side not have any more questions?

[Chief Rose Laboucan]

Can I respond?

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

I'll allow a response, certainly.

[Chief Rose Laboucan]

It's only because I think there could be another avenue. If we're talking about human rights, why could I not fit into the Human Rights Act now? Why should the application to the Human Rights Act be through the Indian Act? There are other things that flow to this that I have to be more than accountable for.

The chaos that is going to be created...close your eyes and think about this, because all of a sudden now, this person who has been put in a corner and not been able to speak up and not been able to be recognized anywhere is all of a sudden going to have this right to say, you don't give me quality water, or you're not giving me enough money and education. Then I have to fight that person now. They're going to appeal to somebody and they have to listen to that now. Then what?

I'm still not going to take that responsibility, because there is just no way I can. We have to look at the realities here. What are the implications of the matrimonial real property rights if they are legislated? What are the implications for the land management act here? Is this an offloading process for the last little piece of land that the Indians have left?

I don't know what this is all about. Let's talk about that. Let's be truthful about that, because you're not doing me any good. You're actually making it worse for me. As a leader of my community, am I to think that the application of this Human Rights Act on the Indian Act is now all of a sudden going to take away the racism and discrimination in this country? The process that was used here, to me, was very discriminatory.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

Well, I want to thank the witnesses for being here. Systemic changes are built on policy and legislation, but relationship changes are built on respect, and I want to tell you that this committee respects your comments. We appreciate your being here today and we look forward to continuing to move forward in working with you.

Thank you very much.

We are adjourned.