Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on March 5th, 2008

[The Chair, Conservative, Barry Devolin]

Good afternoon, everybody. Welcome to this meeting of the House Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development.

Today our guest is Minister Strahl to talk about the supplemental estimates.

Before I go to the minister, I just want to do a little bit of housekeeping. The bells will ring at 5:15 today, about 15 minutes before the end of our normal meeting. In terms of the agenda, it's now 3:30, and the minister will be here until 4:30, when he must leave. His officials will remain after him. We also need to deal with the subcommittee report. The subcommittee met yesterday to talk about further witnesses for Bill C-30.

So my suggestion to the committee is that we continue with the departmental officials from 4:30 until 5 o'clock, and stop that process at 5 o'clock, and spend the last 15 minutes dealing with our subcommittee report, and then we will head to the House at 5:15.

With that, I'd like to welcome Minister Strahl and his officials today. If you could give us a statement, we would appreciate it.

[Chuck Strahl, Conservative, Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I am pleased to be here, although I must admit I'm a little nervous today, given that I'm the only person at the table with a nameplate scratched on a piece of paper in ink. I'm a little nervous about what that might mean, but we're just going to plow ahead and hope for the best. I don't know if there's any significance to it.

Perhaps, for the sake of time, I'll let my officials introduce themselves in their round, if you will, and this way we'll get on with this quickly.

I am pleased, obviously, to be back and to appear before this committee to discuss part B of the 2007-2008 supplementary estimates. I want to talk about the place of the estimates and the other resources in the supply cycle in this government's larger plan to improve quality of life for aboriginal people and northerners, and to move towards a new relationship based on partnership and mutual respect.

It's always been my opinion—our government's opinion—that aboriginal people and communities need pragmatic, doable projects that can improve their quality of life, and not simply empty promises. That's why we're moving ahead the way we are. The government is working with leaders and making real strides and delivering results for first nations, Inuit, and Métis.

With the amounts included in supplementary estimates (B), my department's appropriations for fiscal year 2007-2008 total $7.4 billion.

Our government is committed to working with all stakeholders—provincial and territorial governments and First Nations groups—to bring true and lasting change to aboriginal and northern peoples and communities. The funds committed in the supplementary estimates will allow us to embark on this course.

An outstanding example of this is the agreement reached between the James Bay Cree and the Government of Canada, which I recently had the honour of signing and which represents the largest investment in the estimates now before you: $1.1 billion is now allotted.

This is a vitally important agreement. It will empower the Cree to continue developing the local economy; it will enable them to provide important social services; and it will open the door to formal discussions with the federal government and the Province of Quebec on self-government.

But most of all, Mr. Chairman, it is an agreement that establishes a new relationship between the Cree and the Government of Canada and looks forward to a hopeful and promising future. It was a pleasure and an honour to be there for that ceremony.

The supplementary estimates will also provide funding to other critical areas, assistance with fuel and health and safety pressures, and investments for the communities of Pikangikum and Kashechewan.

The main estimates, the first stage of the supply cycle for 2008-2009, were tabled in the House last Thursday, and although there is a small reduction in the main estimates for next fiscal year, it's important to remember that these do not include resources that will be acquired through the supplementary estimates later in the fiscal cycle.

In addition to our department's funding through the main and supplementary estimates, Budget 2008, tabled in the House last Tuesday, contains vital resources that will enable other departments across government to continue the impressive progress that has already been made under the leadership of the Conservative government.

I thank the honourable members for their support of that budget.

A significant element of this budget concerns Canada's north. Our government's northern strategy is focused on strengthening Canada's sovereignty, promoting economic and social development, protecting our environmental heritage, and improving and devolving governance so that northerners have greater control over their destinies.

By statute, as well as by virtue of the mandate given to me by the Prime Minister to coordinate the government-wide northern strategy, I'm pleased to report that with Budget 2008 we are implementing important new measures that will protect Canada's sovereignty and create more economic opportunities in the north.

For instance, the budget provides $720 million for a new icebreaker to replace the aging Louis S. St-Laurent, which will be decommissioned in about nine years' time.

There are also resources for important geological mapping to help unlock the natural resource potential of the north; for important mapping of the seabed under the Arctic and Atlantic Oceans, so that Canada can continue to claim title to the lands and waters that are rightfully ours; and for the construction and management of a commercial fisheries harbour in Pangnirtung, Nunavut, which will create new jobs and support the growth of the commercial fishery along eastern Baffin Island.

Budget 2008 measures don't stop there. We are increasing the maximum daily residency deduction to further assist in drawing skilled labour to northern and isolated communities; we are extending the mineral exploration tax credit until the end of March 2009; and we are dedicating $80 million per year to Canada's three university granting councils for research in support of industrial innovation, health priorities, and social and economic development in the north.

The 2008 budget also commits resources that will have direct positive effects on the lives of aboriginal people living both north and south of the 60^th parallel. For example, the budget sets aside $147 million over two years for the improvement of First Nations and Inuit health.

Furthermore, we announced an investment of $330 million over two years to improve access to safe drinking water in first nations communities. We've already made significant progress in this area and we're determined to do even more. We've lowered the number of high-risk drinking water systems in first nations communities from what we inherited when we took office, which was 193 communities that were high risk, to 85 at this time, and we're pushing forward to finish the task.

In January, I was in Nipissing First Nation near North Bay, Ontario, to announce our latest progress report on water. I was very pleased to note that in 2006, 21 communities were identified as priorities with both a high-risk system and a drinking water advisory, and now, thanks to our government's working closely with first nations, only six communities remain on that list.

Budget 2008 also delivers resources for the promotion of prevention-based models for child and family services on-reserve, and $70 million over two years to improve first nations education outcomes through enhanced accountability and by encouraging integration with provincial systems. We know that only through strong, stable families and quality education can the future of first nations children be truly secure.

Yesterday I was pleased to be involved in two important announcements that promote that kind of stability and security. First, Bill C-47, an act respecting family homes situated on first nation reserves and matrimonial interests or rights in or to structures and lands situated on those reserves, was introduced in the House. In 2008, it is unacceptable that couples living on-reserve don't have access to the same laws as other Canadians to guide them in determining how they will divide their matrimonial real property. With Bill C-47, this government is advancing a real, practical solution to this intolerable situation.

Second, we announced that five new shelters will be built to help address violence against first nations women and their families. We also recognize the importance of economic development to building strong families and a better quality of life. Here again, Budget 2008 provides the resources to help increase aboriginal participation in the Canadian economy, and $70 million will be dedicated over the next two years to a new aboriginal economic development framework. This will include measures that will assist aboriginal individuals and communities to participate more fully in the economy in all parts of Canada, including the north.

Settled land claims are another important means of spurring economic development. I particularly want to note that I am looking forward to the passage of Bill C-30, an act to establish the Specific Claims Tribunal and to make consequential amendments to other acts, now being considered by this committee. Implementing this important legislation will enable us to make significant progress on the resolution of specific claims and allow first nations to reap the benefits of these agreements and the economic opportunity that will follow.

The Government of Canada has worked in concert with the Assembly of First Nations. Together, we have spared no effort to develop the bill that was announced at the end of last year. This unique cooperation was gratifying for both parties.

Finally, I would also like to take a moment to provide you with an update on the implementation of the historic Indian residential schools settlement agreement. Although this is an aside, I'm sure you'll agree that it's an important one. I'm pleased to report that the government has received more than 88,000 applications for the common experience payment and has processed more than 73,000 of those, totalling a payout of $1.14 billion so far. At the same time, the important work of the independent assessment process has begun.

In addition to compensation, another very important element is the truth and reconciliation commission, which will soon be established and I believe is the cornerstone of the settlement agreement. This commission is crucial to moving forward in partnership with aboriginal and non-aboriginal communities across Canada toward reconciliation.

I also wish to remind the committee of the government's commitment to make a statement of apology to former Indian residential school students. This government is delivering on its commitment to a fair and lasting resolution to the legacy of Indian residential schools.

This brings me to the point I would like to leave you with this afternoon. There is a great deal at stake as we move forward on aboriginal and northern issues. The fact is, as we're all aware, Canada is facing a labour shortage as the baby boom generation retires. Mr. Chairman, the solution to this shortage is right here before us. The aboriginal population is young, growing, and eager to play an important role in the labour market in the Canadian economy.

We must do everything in our power to ensure this participation. Working with our partners, we must use all the tools at our disposal: innovative partnerships, programs and services, and, of course, financial resources.

Mr. Chairman, we know that Canadians want their valuable tax dollars properly managed. That's why our government puts a priority on strong fiscal management and accountability to those we serve. We want to ensure that our programs provide value for money and achieve concrete results. For example, effective July 1, 2008, we will be adding an audit clause to funding agreements with first nations. This will allow the conduct of audits to ensure that first nations have appropriate management, financial, and administrative controls in place, and to encourage the sharing of best practices.

Mr. Chairman, this is not a new idea—it's already in place in several government departments—but I believe it's an important move because it shows that not only are we as a government accountable to all Canadians, but also that first nations and tribal councils will be able to show their members that they too are accountable for the funds they receive from the federal government.

It is essential that we have the resources afforded by Budget 2008, and the main and supplementary estimates, to work with our partners to continue to improve quality of life and to ensure that aboriginal young people have access to the educational and skills development opportunities they need to secure a prosperous future for themselves, for their communities, and for all Canadians.

Thank you. I will now be glad to answer questions from the members of the committee.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Barry Devolin]

Thank you, Minister Strahl.

We will begin questions. The first round is for seven minutes each, followed by a five-minute round. As I've done in the past, I'm going to be tight on the time at seven minutes and will announce when you have one minute left.

Ms. Neville.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, I thank you and your officials very much for coming here today.

I have so many questions and so little time.

Let me put on the record—only because you mentioned it here—the conversation we had prior to the meeting. We want to look at the bill on matrimonial real property. We cannot put the bill through at all of its stages without having reviewed that 52-page document. We want to look at it, we want to consider it, and we look forward to working with you on it. But to fast-track it that way, I would say, is an insult to us and certainly to those it affects.

There are many questions, Minister, and if I have time I'm going to share it with one of my colleagues, but I want to talk about the supplementary estimates. They show an internal reallocation of resources of roughly $20 million from capital expenditures to grants and contributions.

When you came before this committee last November, you indicated to us that education for first nations was a priority for this government. You stated this in the House on January 31: “We would all like to have more and newer schools, but we continue to invest in schools across the country. It is a priority for the government.”

I guess what I'm doing, Minister, is questioning the priority of it. As I indicated, we're showing a reallocation of capital to operating dollars, and we know that much of it is affecting the schools. You cited the water initiatives. We appreciate those, but not at the expense of education. You and I both know, as do all members of the committee, that the aboriginal population is the youngest and fastest-growing. We've heard from communities all around the country about the cutbacks and the school projects that have not moved forward.

I guess I'm questioning the issues around several schools: Peguis; Ebb and Flow; Sioux Valley; North Spirit Lake; Wabaseemoong; the First Nations Technical Institute, which you've addressed in the House and you want to pass over to the province; and most particularly, Pelican Narrows School in Saskatchewan, which has a carbon dioxide health issue; and Deschambault, where the school burned down, and we now know the alternative is overcrowded by over 200 pupils.

My concern is with the reallocation of capital dollars intended for schools and with funding commitments being made to schools but not happening. We talk about education. You ended your presentation very eloquently on children being the future and on the importance of education and skills development, but it's not going to happen if they don't have the facilities.

[Chuck Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon, BC]

Thank you. You raise a good question, of course, because often, in any budget cycle, it's about setting priorities. There are always lots of requests for funding from our sources, and we try to prioritize the spending and try to get the money to where it can do the most good. But it's always difficult, because there are not only emergencies that crop up, but also simply a matter of setting priorities.

For example, concerning our national investment priorities, I can give you those. Our first priority is protecting and maintaining the life cycle of existing assets, with an emphasis on health and safety. The second one is mitigating health and safety risks through existing and new assets. Third, we have also addressed the backlog regarding water and sewer systems under capital and facility maintenance activities. And fourth, we invest in other priorities, including sustainable communities, and that might include things like electrification, and so on.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Mr. Minister, we know that in these education facilities there's carbon dioxide and there's mould. There are instances when classes are taking place in teachers' homes because the facilities are not sufficient. So you're reallocating the capital and putting it into operating, and I don't understand how you mesh that with the words about education and skill training being such a priority.

[Chuck Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon, BC]

Again, I don't dispute that there are problems. With that priority list that I'm talking about, the number one priority is protecting and maintaining things in a healthy environment. So if there is a mould issue that comes up, as you mentioned, that takes priority.

You can set your budget out and say this is how it's all going to roll out this year, and it all looks tickety-boo, but the trouble is, as soon as you're made aware of a health issue, including something like mould, you have to look after it. You have to allocate funds for it, and you have to make it a priority. You can't just say it wasn't in the budget, so it doesn't matter. It becomes the priority at that time.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

I understand that. Pelican Lake, though, has a school with carbon dioxide in it. It's a health hazard. I've spoken to community members. How does that get addressed? How do you prioritize that?

I read you a list of eight or nine schools. I have more, where they're overcrowded—

[Rod Bruinooge, Conservative, Winnipeg South, MB]

On a point of order, Mr. Chair, could we somehow bring this back to the supplementary estimates? I know the member wants to go to specific examples that she has, but if she could tie it back to supplementary estimates—

[The Chair, Conservative, Barry Devolin]

Mr. Bruinooge, that's not a point of order. Ms. Neville is asking a question about the estimates, and I'm going to give some latitude here.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

I am. It relates to the reallocation of dollars designated for the building of schools. I don't understand it when you say that education is a priority.

[Chuck Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon, BC]

We will spend $240 million on schools this year. As to the particular examples you raise—you raised several examples of schools—because I have the estimates information in front of me, I don't have those particular examples. I can get you answers as to where they are on the cycle of our plans to deal with those.

Again, there is $240 million on the books to spend on schools, but when and if a health problem crops up, that takes priority over whatever other plans you may have. So we address them based on a priority list and a protocol that's well established. When there's a health and safety issue, it goes to the top of the list.

There's really no other way to do it, because the best laid plans here, of mice and men, go astray if a crisis occurs. I'm interested in the carbon dioxide problem that you talked about in terms of this particular school. If it's a health crisis, it needs to be addressed. I don't dispute that. It's just that I don't know the particular example.

Certainly when something like that happens, or if a school burns down, as one did in Pikangikum last summer.... We got a new school up and running six months later, because it became a priority.

[The Chair, Conservative, Barry Devolin]

Thank you, Minister.

Monsieur Lemay, you have seven minutes.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

As I understand it, Mr. Chair, we will have the opportunity to see the minister again when we discuss the 2008-2009 main estimates. I assume that he will have the answer to the question from my colleague Ms. Neville. So I will stick to the supplementary estimates.

Mr. Minister, Bill 125, An Act to amend the Youth Protection Act has been passed in Quebec. The act, which has been in force since last September, will have a considerable impact on First Nations. I imagine that someone must have explained it to you or that someone somewhere in the department will be aware of it. The aim is to get children out of problematic, difficult or violent situations as quickly as possible.

In my riding of Abitibi-Témiscamingue, for example, there are five Algonquin communities, of which four are experiencing difficulties. Children are taken out of First Nations communities and, because preparatory work has not been properly done, there are no foster families to take them, there is nothing. I called your department's attention to this problem in June last year. I told you that an act was going to be passed and put into effect. But nothing in the supplementary estimates indicates that First Nations are going to receive additional resources to prepare foster families in aboriginal communities.

[Chuck Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon, BC]

Generally, the government is intent on continuing to work with the provinces as partners in child and family service agreements that accomplish our mutual goals. That is why we signed off the agreement in Alberta, which is one of note. The objective is to try to intervene early enough in this stage so you don't have to apprehend the children. You're trying to help the families so you don't get to the apprehension stage.

There is money in the budget allocated for partnerships with provinces for child and family service types of arrangements. It may well be--and it's my hope--that as we move ahead, whether it's with Quebec or other provinces, those arrangements will become mutual, whether it's an Alberta-type model like we already signed or something else to put children first.

The objective is to make sure we intervene at an early enough stage that we help the families and whatever their crises might be so we don't have to apprehend the children. There are times when they are in dangerous situations, as you say, but the objective is to try to strengthen the family and keep the children at home.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

I agree with you, Mr. Minister. There are plans and so on, but the fact remains that I asked about this the last time we met on the supplementary estimates. That was in June, if memory serves. I was talking about Quebec, not Alberta, Saskatchewan or British Columbia.

Have you entered into an agreement with the Government of Quebec to provide additional funds so that foster families can be prepared? I do not need an answer immediately. If you cannot give me an answer today, you can do so when we meet again. I was expecting to find an item for that in the supplementary estimates, but I do not see one. I had requested it.

[Chuck Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon, BC]

The truth is that there is not an agreement with the Province of Quebec yet, although there have been discussions. I've spoken to the provincial minister, and I know he's interested in this.

It's important to know that at the political level these types of arrangements are always tripartite, and you have to include the first nations, so they're not quick and easy things to negotiate. There's interest on the part of Quebec, and I think on the part of first nations, so my hope is that we'll be able to move ahead with the province and first nations on a tripartite agreement in the near future. But it's not in here because it's not yet signed.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

I agree with you, Mr. Minister, but for me, the “near future” is quicker than six months. It is six months now. We will talk about it again. We will also talk about matrimonial property again. Bill C-47 is important.

I saw that funds were provided to the Canadian Mortgage and Housing Corporation to improve market-based housing initiatives for First Nations and so on. What is the status of the request made by the Assembly of First Nations of Quebec and Labrador for 10,000 homes? Is there any understanding, any negotiation process? Is there any funding provided for that in the supplementary estimates?

[Chuck Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon, BC]

There's certainly nothing in the supplementary estimates for 10,000 housing units. That's clear; I know that.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

It is spread over ten years, Mr. Minister. I am sorry if I confused you.

[Chuck Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon, BC]

We did establish in our first two budgets significant investments--well over a billion dollars for housing, and some specifically for social housing, some for a market housing fund, and some specifically for the north. So there were several packets of money that were set out that could be used for housing for first nations. There are several different types of housing available, both from social housing and from a market-driven perspective, so those funds are out there and they're not all depleted. They're helping to build houses already. The market housing fund should be rolled out here this spring. Although I don't administer that--it's through CMHC, so it's not my bailiwick--I do know those moneys are being expended. When I travel the country people do talk to me about the fact that they are getting some houses built. There's always a demand for lots of them, but I think it is making a difference.

[The Chair, Conservative, Barry Devolin]

Thank you, Mr. Minister.

Our regular committee member from the NDP, Ms. Crowder, fell and broke her ankle yesterday, I understand. She's unable to be with us today, Minister, but I'm sure Mr. Martin will adequately fill in for her.

Seven minutes, Mr. Martin.

[Tony Martin, NDP, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

Thank you.

I ask this question on behalf of my colleague Mr. Angus, from Timmins--James Bay, and I'm sure you now recognize what it's going to be on.

In the estimates there's been an internal reallocation of resources from capital to grants and contributions of some $20 million, which leaves about $1.2 million in the capital fund. There were reports suggesting that construction of new on-reserve schools and major repairs to existing ones in a number of jurisdictions are on hold owing to rising construction and other costs. In December 2007 the Attawapiskat First Nation learned that long-scheduled construction of a new school in the community is apparently delayed for at least five years. The Ontario spokesperson for DIAND was quoted as saying that the Attawapiskat decision resulted from funding pressures and that some capital projects are being deferred but not being cancelled. Can you comment on the rationale for transferring funds from capital expenditures at this time, in light of the well-documented need for improvements to and new construction of first nations schools?

What funding pressures are responsible for the apparently lengthy deferral of projects such as the Attawapiskat school, where children have been in deteriorating portables for eight years? Across the country, how many school construction or repair projects have been put on hold, and for how long?

On a more personal basis, Mr. Minister, I went into Attawapiskat myself back in about 2002, when I was the provincial member of Parliament, and I went through that school at that time. At that time, there were some major issues--oil coming up through...and children having to spend the whole day in there. In fact, I went there in the middle of February, when it was unbelievably cold--I've never felt anything like it. Going outside, even, during a school day in the long winter, particularly when it's a severe winter, is also very difficult. I guess the question is on the Attawapiskat school situation and why. What can we expect from your department in the near future to resolve that?

[Chuck Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon, BC]

Thank you, I appreciate that. You have several questions, and I'll try to answer them.

First of all, it's important to know that the kids aren't in the school that you were in back in 2002. Because of the fumes and the problems there with an oil spill that occurred whenever it occurred—some years ago—there's been investment of about $3 million in new facilities to get them out of the school and to try to.... Again, because it's a health and safety issue, it takes priority, so they're no longer in that school. It's important that people know that.

That being said, of course, there is always a demand for more or better facilities. Again, we contribute to first nations about $1 billion in these estimates for infrastructure, including everything from water to schools to housing—you name it: there' s $1 billion that goes in for housing, education, and infrastructure of different sorts.

So there is quite a bit of money out there, but it is also true that we prioritize our spending based on the factors I mentioned earlier. We emphasize health and safety as a first issue. That's why those kids were taken out of the school while we spent $3 million to do that and another $250,000 to make adjustments to the high school that was close by, again to help those kids access facilities.

Then we mitigate any health risks as a second priority: mitigating health and safety risks to existing and/or new assets. We address the backlog on water and sewer systems. Then, our fourth priority is new investments in things such as education facilities and community buildings and so on. But always things go onto the priority list.

You asked about some of the deferrals of school construction. I can tell you that I thought this question might come up, so I have some answers on it.

Over the past five years, the department has identified 29 school projects that have been deferred because of lack of funding in the country. Of the 29 school projects, twelve will commence in 2008-09, in this budget year; four will begin in 2009-10; two more in 2011-12; three in 2012-13; and the six remaining are after that.

So again, we schedule them. A dozen of them will commence this year, but Attawapiskat is not on the schedule for this year.

[Tony Martin, NDP, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

Okay. I wanted to get you on the record on that and I wanted to place it in front of you as a real priority for those of us who have responsibility for communities in northern Ontario and particularly on behalf of my colleague from Timmins--James Bay, who's been working on this very diligently since 2004 and in fact, as you may be aware, has a website up now attracting a lot of attention and focusing on this school and wanting to see it built—as was promised—as soon as possible.

The second question I have is around the issue of education and why it is—and this has been raised by a couple of the communities in my own riding—that your department sees fit to transfer less money for aboriginal children to buy schooling from school boards than the school boards are getting from the province to cover the costs for the regular students attending those schools.