Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on March 5th, 2008

[The Chair, Conservative, Barry Devolin]

Thank you, Mr. Minister.

Monsieur Lévesque, cinq minutes.

[Yvon Lévesque, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for being here, Mr. Minister. I am going to ask my questions all together. You have a way with words, so I will give you the floor. There is an $1.1 billion item in the budget. Is this for the agreement you signed in Mistissini on February 20 or 21 this year that follows on from the James Bay Agreement of 1975?

An amount of $1.4 billion was announced in the papers and in the news release that you issued.

Could you tell me whether the $1.1 billion will be paid now in a lump sum or whether it will be spread over the 20 years identified? If so, what oversight will you have over the funds?

The last time you appeared, I asked about a problem that First Nations are experiencing. But of course, you noticed how dynamic were the people the in village you visited. With regard to the moisture problems in their present houses, must they use the funds allocated in these last regulations or will those funds be topped up before they assume responsibility for their villages?

Will the $1.1 billion be paid in a lump sum or over 20 years, and are you going to be overseeing the way in which the funds are administered?

[Chuck Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon, BC]

Thank you.

You're right; those are very exciting communities. My hat is off to the leadership in those communities, not only for what they're doing in each individual community but for their collective work together. They've done good work coming together and have strengthened their hand.

In fact, I always urge first nations groups, whenever possible—and I think that's a good example—to come together and come with a common solution and a common negotiation position. I think it strengthens the hand of the first nation, but it's also a good thing for government, because senior levels of government say “We can do a deal that covers this whole region and agree together on what the provincial government is going to do, what the federal government is going to do, and first nations”. I think it's the way to go, and I was just delighted to sign off on it.

The $1.4 billion will be paid out on a schedule. Some of it's over 20 years, but the large part of it is up front. So $1.1 billion will be paid up front. They're designing what kind of trust fund they might want to put that in and how it might be utilized, but the money is going in up front in a big payment. That's why it's in the estimates in that lump sum.

The other money is paid out over a period of time for all sorts of things. We can get you that schedule if you'd like to see it. But it does stretch out for the next 20 years, as does the provincial agreement, which is separate from ours. The Province of Quebec, of course, also has a 20-year agreement with the same group of people on provincial-type services such as delivery of police services, perhaps, or different things that the province has basically contracted or agreed upon for a 20-year period.

So the things that are federal cover the same 20-year period as those of the province, in a separate agreement with the same group of people, but there is a big lump-sum payment up front. The rest of it is over the next 20 years. We can get you the schedule of how that money is being paid out and how it's being held to account.

It is an exciting community. People should go there. In fact, I would urge people who aren't from the region to go. If they can take a trip up to this country and see how these communities are organizing themselves, it will dispel some of your myths about first nations communities. They have got their act together in a sense of setting priorities. We held this in a nice community centre, with new school facilities close by and lots of new houses. The guy who was driving me around was a police officer. He had market-based housing. He drove me by his house. That's his house that he financed. It's on first nations land. In other words, it was just a pleasure to hear how excited they were about the opportunities they have in their communities. I encourage people to take a trip up there and drop a few tourist dollars into their pockets.

[The Chair, Conservative, Barry Devolin]

Thank you, Minister Strahl, and thanks for being here today.

It's my understanding that you need to leave now. When you talk about seeing some of these communities, I am hopeful that at some point this year this committee will have the opportunity to travel in Canada and possibly visit some communities where we need some good ideas, but also some other communities where good ideas are already being implemented and we can share some practices.

I'm going to take about one minute to let the minister leave, and then Mr. Storseth is next on my list to continue with questioning of the officials.

I'd encourage members to come back to the table. We would like to get as many questions in as possible. We need to end around five so that we have time to deal with our subcommittee report before the bells at 5:15.

I know Mr. Russell has a question. We're going to try to get to his turn.

Mr. Storseth is next, followed by Mr. Martin, followed by Mr. Warkentin, and if we get that far, then Mr. Russell.

Mr. Storseth, if you're ready you can begin with your five-minute round.

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I should tell you at the start that if I run out of time my colleague from Peace River will be taking the rest of it. Apparently Mr. Albrecht would like the time--so there's a fight here.

I'd like to start out by asking you some questions on the northern strategy. I think it's a very important aspect of our vision for Canada, in enhancing our role and our vision for the north, and kind of flanging it up a little bit. I understand you gentlemen have a good role to play in that.

Unfortunately, many of my questions were for the minister, so I'm going to try to play them around here.

On the geological mapping, can you explain to us to a degree how extensive this is going to be, and what, if any, role DND is playing in this? Is there any sharing of information and coordination of the results that DND will have access to?

[Michael Wernick]

I'll do my best. Thank you for the question.

This is an area where we play a coordinating role with other departments. A lot of the delivery is done by them, and I may have to get some follow-up information for you.

The mapping will be done by Natural Resources Canada and coast guard vessels, dropping sonar buoys into the water and that sort of thing. The priority for the money is to finish the seabed mapping that will allow our diplomats and lawyers to file claims under the UN Law of the Sea Convention.

All the countries that have Arctic interests are doing the same. In fact, we're actually cooperating with each other, sharing ship time and that sort of thing. It will allow a complete up-to-date mapping of the seabed in the Arctic, and then the lawyers can fight out demarcation lines and that sort of thing. So that's what it's for.

I'm not sure that there are DND interests so much. Natural Resources Canada will do it. Coast guard vessels will be the main vehicle for doing it.

There is some mapping on the ground going on as well in terms of finding out what's up there in terms of minerals, and again, that's Natural Resources Canada. But if you have any specific questions, I'd be happy to chase my colleagues for them.

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

Absolutely. And if you get hold of any further information on this, I'd appreciate it afterwards. I understand if you don't have all the details in front of you.

My other question, then, would be on how far away we are from being able to implement this technology. Is this something that the money is appropriated for and we're going to be able to go forward with immediately, or is this something that's a month or two away, or a year away?

[Michael Wernick]

My understanding is that the mapping exercise has already started, and what this basically does is accelerate it. You can pay for more ship travel, more time, and you can simply be more active, especially in the summer season when the water is open and you can do the maps.

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

Is the amount we've appropriated going to be enough to get this done in an expedited fashion? It's my understanding that in this mapping we are actually somewhat behind some of the other nations that, as you said, have Arctic interests and have already commenced some of this work.

[Michael Wernick]

My understanding--and again I'd have to defer to colleagues from Natural Resources Canada--is that it will be enough money to finish the mapping required to file the submissions under the UNCLOS process in time--there is a 2013 deadline--and then the lawyers take over.

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

Okay, excellent.

Currently my colleagues opposite have some questions. This is very pertinent as to the development of the north.

I'd also like to ask one quick question on the $47.6 million that was allocated in this to Canada Post. Can you explain that number to me? It's probably a simple answer that--

[Michael Wernick]

That's the food mail program.

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

Is that all for the food mail program?

[Michael Wernick]

We write Canada Post a cheque to do the food mail program. That's what that is.

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

Thank you very much.

I'll share the rest of my time with my colleague.

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Storseth.

Thank you, gentlemen, for being here this afternoon.

I wondered if we could get into a short discussion with regard to the minister's brief description of the audit function that will be employed in July of this year. I'm wondering if somebody might be able to give an update as to where that is at and exactly how this is going to be carried out.

[Michael Wernick]

Thank you for the question.

As you'll be aware, given that you are appropriating about $5 billion in grants and contributions, we do a lot of contribution agreements with recipients. They each have boiler-plate language as well as the specific purposes for the money. We discovered through some of our management practices reviews that we did not have standard language on the ability to go in and audit, if necessary, on the use of the money. It's not really an issue in most cases, where the recipient cooperates with the audit, and that's often the case. It is an issue when the recipient doesn't want to cooperate with the audit. Most departments have this kind of language. We have it in some of our programs and not others, and we're simply trying to standardize it and put it into all the agreements.

We discovered this rather late in the year. We didn't want to unilaterally force it without consultation with the recipients, to catch them by surprise, so we're doing it with a three-month lag so we'll have time between now and July 1 to make sure everybody is comfortable. It's the kind of language that recipients would have seen from Health Canada or other departments.

[The Chair, Conservative, Barry Devolin]

Thank you.

Mr. Martin, five minutes.

[Tony Martin, NDP, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

Thank you very much.

I'm a little disappointed that the minister isn't here and that we didn't have a bit more time with him.

I just have a couple of technical questions.

In the initiative that has been launched by your department, “Justice at Last”, a number of first nations, including my own at home, are finding that a lot of the research that needs to be conducted to plan properly and to submit claims for negotiation has to be done in a hurry because of the timelines here. There's a lot of it that has to be done to prepare and to hopefully be successful. They're saying there isn't enough funding available to actually make that happen in the way they would like, so they're satisfied they can put forward a case that has every potential to be successful. There are a number of communities, bands across the country, that are concerned about that and they wanted me to ask this question. Is there any more money coming? Is there any more money available? Do you understand the issue and are you going to respond to it in any concrete way?

[Michael Wernick]

Thank you for this question.

I don't want to be facetious, but I've never heard “specific claims” and “hurry” in the same sentence. Part of the problem is that the process has been so excruciatingly slow--

[Tony Martin, NDP, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

I thought that was what this process was supposed to do.

[Michael Wernick]

That's right. If you go back to the Prime Minister's announcement from last June, it's a four-part strategy, the centrepiece being the tribunal, which is in Bill C-30, which is before this committee. If the tribunal comes into effect, we will also be doing the other parts, which are streamlining the government assessment process, which is largely about figuring out whether a lawful obligation took place or not. That's between us and the Department of Justice. We've secured some resources to streamline that process. There will be funds available to assist the first nations in research. I can get you some details on how much and when, but without the tribunal we're just going to have to carry on with the old model in which “hurry” was not an operative word.

[Tony Martin, NDP, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

There was another question raised by some local people in my area. We had a residential school in Sault Ste. Marie--Shingwauk--and they were wondering if there was going to be any support to communities to help people with the preparation of their application and with the gathering of the records that can be quite cumbersome. Out of my office, we've already assisted a couple of people in that exercise. Is there any thought to some support coming forward to local communities to help individuals and families to prepare those applications so that, again, they can maximize their potential to be successful and to do it quickly, so people aren't continuing to die while we wait to get this money out?

[Peter Harrison, Deputy Minister, Indian Residential Schools Resolution Canada, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development]

Thank you for your question, Mr. Chairman.

There are a number of supports that are already in place. Some of them are health supports, some are through Health Canada. There is support through the Aboriginal Healing Foundation and through Indian residential schools resolution. We provided funding to Shingwauk, for example.

The challenge of the future that the truth and reconciliation commission will have—and they will need to address this directly—is how to pull together and provide the archiving of information, specifically in respect of individuals applying through the process. Most people already have applied for the common experience payment. We've been in a position to help them by 1-800 lines. Individuals who will be applying to the independent assessment process will be provided with support through this channel. However, with respect to the independent assessment process, which will be looking at the cases of abuse--that is, physical, psychological, and sexual abuse—the strong recommendation is that those individuals hire a lawyer.

[The Chair, Conservative, Barry Devolin]

One minute.