Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on June 4th, 2008

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Okay, that's good news. Thank you.

[Anita Boscariol]

As to the first question, yes, we do make pre-implementation funding available once a final agreement is signed, and pre-implementation funding did flow to the Tsawwassen First Nation.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

In that context, Tsawwassen was able to carry out the number of activities that they had outlined. There was a detailed transition-to-treaty work plan and timeline, so they were funded to complete the—

[Anita Boscariol]

Yes. In my latest conversations with Chief Baird, she did indicate that they were able to use the funds to carry out the pre-implementation activities.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

I think this is an opportunity for you to put on record the parallel fishing agreement. The committee has received a number of briefs. Part of it has been that people feel the aboriginal treaty rights and title around fishing has been implicated in the parallel agreement. My understanding is that it hasn't. It's not an agreement in perpetuity—there's actually a timeline around it and a renegotiation period. I wonder if you could give us a few more details around that fishing agreement.

[Chuck Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon, BC]

This is important; when you go through all the documents, there's the final agreement, then there are the appendices that go with it. All this is great late-night reading, some of the description of land titles and so on. But there is also the harvest agreement, the side agreement. If people are interested, they can get their hands on it and know exactly what it is. It's not in the final agreement, because it's not part of the treaty, but there is a harvest agreement. It involves a commercial fishery component. It's a renewable agreement that provides for licences to be issued to the first nation.

It's not part of the treaty, but it is important to the first nation for economic reasons. It's done under the control of the Department of Fisheries and Oceans and the minister to make sure that any harvesting is done in a sustainable and environmentally sensitive way as part of an integrated fishery. This means that there's not a stand-alone fishery for first nations and another one for the commercial fishery. It's part of an integrated commercial fishery. Similar rules apply for everything from net sizes to catch limits and percentages of catch.

It's all well described in the document. It can be renewed. I hope it will be. But it's outside the treaty. It's based on commercial opportunity, not on a section 35 right.

[The Chair, Conservative, Barry Devolin]

Thank you, Mr. Minister.

Mr. Bruinooge from the Conservative Party, you have seven minutes.

[Rod Bruinooge, Conservative, Winnipeg South, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for appearing before us today and taking so much effort and time to ensure the passage of this bill through the House. I know the people of the Tsawwassen community are very thankful that we've reached this point.

There's been some suggestion that there hasn't been enough consultation on this matter. When we look back to the last 10 to 15 years, there has been a very long process of negotiation of treaties in the province of British Columbia. So it's important for you to talk a bit about some of the consultation that has occurred in relation to this treaty. Perhaps you can give us some testimony on that.

[Chuck Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon, BC]

Thank you.

We're learning more and more about consultation and the need to do it first in first nations circles. But with these sorts of complex agreements there's a need to do a lot of consultation with the general community in an urban setting. In this case, over the past six years when this became quite intense, negotiators participated in some 70 third-party consultation meetings, where people were brought in to discuss the impact it might have on them. There were some 28 public information events, where people could come in to publicly ask their questions, get information, and so on.

There were meetings with the neighbouring town of Delta and the Lower Mainland regional governments to make sure they were aware of the interest of the Tsawwassen First Nation to be part of the regional government system. I've also given quite a number of briefings to MPs and others who were interested in knowing some of these details. Because it's so detailed, our negotiator has made himself available to members of Parliament and others, as requested, to describe the details and the consultation process to try to demystify some of this.

The Tsawwassen First Nation, of course, has done yeoman's service in explaining what this means, not only to themselves, but in terms of their relationship with the greater community and people who are non-members resident on their lands. They already have a lot of people living on their lands now, and there'll be more in the future. They have done excellent work in explaining that when the treaty is implemented, those people will have more influence in the future on issues of importance to them as residents who are non-members. They'll have positions on boards, and of course it's guaranteed that they'll be treated the same as everybody else on those treaty lands. They'll have the ability to take part in those discussions in a meaningful way.

The consultation to date is indicative of the consultation that will take place going forward. It's an example of what's possible in an extremely complex area. If you've been there--and you probably have if you've gone to the ferry--you've seen the port, the ferries, the roads, the neighbouring communities, and the fishing in an urban setting. To get it all negotiated meant that consultation was a buzzword and a key word throughout this entire process.

[Rod Bruinooge, Conservative, Winnipeg South, MB]

I'm quite certain that what we've learned from the consultation process with the Tsawwassen will help us as we continue to move forward with a number of other communities in British Columbia.

Questions have been raised by a number of individuals about taxation in the community, and how the Tsawwassen will be able to contribute to the running and financing of their own government. Perhaps you could talk a bit about how the treaty deals with that.

[Chuck Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon, BC]

One of the goals of the treaty is to reduce first nation reliance on government funding. I'm sure Chief Baird will be able to tell you what she was thinking, but it's clear to me that economic opportunity was a key part of what was negotiated here.

The capacity to generate revenue to look after their share of government expenses is going to be a great thing. They'll get out from under the thumb of the Indian Act. But the whole idea of generating revenue and being a responsible government is a wonderful thing in itself. Nobody likes collecting taxes, but collecting taxes and running and administrating a government is what self-government is all about. In my opinion, they're going to have the ability to do that in this setting.

There is a side agreement, a tax treatment agreement, outside the treaty. The Government of Canada, in dozens of other cases across the country, has negotiated tax agreements with first nations and, in this case, outside the treaty process. It allows for own-source revenue for the first nation. There is a formula in the agreement itself that as revenue increases, dependence on outside revenue--in this case Government of Canada revenue--will decrease. Obviously that's a win for first nations, but it's a win for Canada in the long run, too.

I can remember, when I first came to this place back in 1993-94, talking about what a glorious day it would be when.... Again, no one likes taxation, and I'm sure some of the first nations in Tsawwassen wonder why they're moving this way. But the truth is that with taxation comes accountability, and you become masters of your own house.

I think it's going to be a great day for the Tsawwassen First Nation when they move to complete financial independence and have the ability to completely run their own government and finance it through tax agreements with Canada and their own source of revenue. It makes for good governance. Good governance follows that model. I appreciate the first nation negotiator and our negotiator insisting on that kind of a model.

[The Chair, Conservative, Barry Devolin]

Thank you very much, Minister.

That concludes our time today with the minister.

In the past 45 minutes I've heard about Chief Baird this, and Chief Baird that. As it turns out, we're going to get to hear from Chief Baird next.

[Chuck Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon, BC]

You're a lucky committee.

[The Chair, Conservative, Barry Devolin]

Thank you for being here.

I'm going to suspend for a few minutes while we switch witnesses.

[The Chair, Conservative, Barry Devolin]

Welcome back.

At this point I would like to thank our second set of witnesses today. We are delighted to have Chief Kim Baird and Laura Cassidy, who is, I believe, a councillor with the Tsawwassen First Nation.

Chief Baird, we'll follow a similar format as with the minister. If you can make a statement of 10 minutes or less, that will be followed by a single seven-minute round of questions from the members.

With that, Chief Baird, the floor is yours. Please make your opening statement.

[Chief Kim Baird, Chief, Tsawwassen First Nation]

Good afternoon, honoured members of Parliament.

My name is Kim Baird, and I am the Chief of Tsawwassen. I have been the elected chief for about nine years now.

With me is councillor Laura Cassidy. A majority of my treaty team is in the audience—my posse, if you will.

I'm thrilled to be here today. It's been a very long journey and the last legs of it are excruciating, as we await the ratification of our treaty. It's been an extraordinary journey for me, my team, my council, and my whole community.

Ours is the first treaty, as discussed earlier, to be ratified through the B.C.treaty process. This makes it significant in many ways. In my presentation I'll speak to some reasons why I think it's significant before I move into the pre-implementation activities that we are now engaged in.

First, I think it's important for others to see how a modern treaty in an urban area will work. It is only through the hands-on experience of community-building provided by this treaty that people will be able to appreciate its potential.

This treaty provides for certainty in a key strategic area from a public policy perspective. In some ways, we are the keepers of the Pacific gateway, if you will. And as a result of this treaty, as well as a good relationship with the Vancouver Fraser Port Authority, we will now benefit from living in the middle of a transportation hub, instead of being an opponent to the nation's transportation infrastructure needs. This is good news indeed. It is certainty for everyone.

The treaty also brings real-world reconciliation. Undefined Tsawwassen aboriginal rights and title are defined and agreed to under this treaty. This represents a major paradigm shift for my community—a shift from dependency to autonomy, and a shift from being held back by a negative history and the Indian Act to taking charge of our future and destiny.

Another area of significance is the potential for sustainability for my community. Much of this comes through economic opportunities. This treaty provides for an increased land base, and although it's modest in size, it provides great opportunities. Ultimately I think the most important thing this treaty will provide is self-governance: we will be able, once and for all, to extricate ourselves from the Indian Act, to get this oppressive legislation off our backs.

But we will do so in a way that we can handle, which is based on our needs and, most importantly, our decisions over our own lives and the future of our community, a community that has existed for thousands of years and plans on thriving, thanks to this treaty.

I am saddened that many people don't believe in my community. Even a few of our own members expressed doubt publicly. I am convinced this is the residue of a colonial legacy, what I have heard described as an Indian Act hangover, a hangover that includes the residential school experience and its generational impacts. Tragic beyond any definition, it is nevertheless offset by the fact that a strong majority of my community believes in our ability to look after ourselves. This hope and belief overshadows the critics and naysayers who are trying to stop us from succeeding, for I believe in my heart of hearts that this treaty is the foundation for success.

We are confident that in 15 years or so we will no longer need transfers from Indian Affairs because we will be economically self-sufficient. This is an amazing prospect, something we couldn't dream of achieving while we were tethered to the Indian Act. And this economic independence will allow us to pursue our sustainability goals with respect to our culture, the environment, and our social fabric. It will allow us to provide culturally appropriate services to our membership. It will allow us to tackle poor housing and more. It will allow us to rebuild our culture. It will contribute to our wellness. It will contribute to the educational aspirations of our youth.

We have worked hard to reach an agreement. Do we think it's perfect? No, far from it. It took every dollar, fish, comma, and period contained within it for our treaty team and council to be able to recommend it to our community.

And I am so proud of the courage of my community in embracing our future. We were under so much pressure because, through no fault of ours, we became the first in the B.C. treaty process. We were page-one news for weeks on end. Many of my peers were less than supportive of our treaty and our community's decision. Some, because of many issues both related and unrelated to our treaty, protested during my entrance to the B.C. Legislature last fall when I had the honour of addressing it in relation to our treaty.

In some ways, I think it's a bit of a chicken-and-egg situation. Cutting trail on these matters is not easy, but that is no reason for progress to stop. We can't afford to prevent progress.

Don't get me wrong: I don't want to gloss over the challenges we have faced and continue to face. We acknowledge that there are many hurdles still to come. Shared territories or overlaps, for example, come from within our first nations community, and are a critical area that we are still actively trying to resolve.

Currently we are working on pre-implementation activities to breathe life into this treaty. Our workload ahead is daunting. People are amazed when I tell them that we have less than a year to replace the Indian Act in our community. We are working actively on over 30 projects that we aim to complete by the effective date. We consider them absolutely necessary if we are to succeed from day one onwards as a self-governing first nation.

As a brief aside, I should say that the support from Indian and Northern Affairs has been tremendous so far. So we're very optimistic that we can reach the targets of this work plan.

But I'll describe these projects in a little more detail. First, there are the tripartite activities necessary to meet the obligations under the treaty. Surveying lands and looking at the replacement interests to register them with the provincial land title office is a huge amount of work that the three parties are sharing. This will ensure that our lands are put into a Torrens system, a system that guarantees title to the parcels.

Second, our participation in Metro Vancouver is important. We are the first first nation member in the history of regional governance in Vancouver, and our work is ongoing. Water and sewer servicing, membership obligations and the like are now being discussed. These discussions are time-consuming, but critical, if we are to benefit from and contribute to the growth of the region.

Third is our internal development work under way. This includes our new land use plan, which is almost ready for community release. This plan was based on community consultations and has been an exciting process. It has been challenging for a very specific reason, though. This process is as important as treaty, if not more so, but we have to do it in a relatively short time period. This process unlocks the potential of our lands under treaty, and provides zoning designations and a community-approved plan. We can't generate any revenue without it, but we refuse to move forward unless the community decides together how they want the land to look. A public release of the land use plan and community vote is pending. The vote on the land use plan will be in July.

This leads to the economic development potential and planning that is unfolding. We're actively looking at economic development opportunities with world-class companies. I can see the excitement build in our members as they realize a more prosperous future is no longer just a dream. The climate for cooperation between our members on economic development is greater than I have ever seen, and the enthusiasm is contagious. I must stress that there is a strong focus not just on collective opportunities but on individual wealth creation as well. A sustainable future will be built on entrepreneurial spirit and independence. Our government will do as much as possible to support both forms of economic development.

Consider, as well, one final area of work, our legislative drafting project. We are in close consultation with our members, drafting legislation to ensure that our new governance structures are in place by the effective date. As a law-making first nation, our government won't be able to do anything if there isn't a law in place authorizing it. It's yet another daunting prospect; but now, as we start developing policy in various areas, such as land management, finance, and administration, we are taking control. Our dream of independence and self-reliance is becoming a reality.

We anticipate that 13 laws will be ready by the effective date. By consulting experienced advisers, looking at best practices, reflecting on our traditions, and seeking advice from our community members, we feel confident and excited at the prospect of looking at a more democratic system accountable to our constituents.

So you can appreciate our developmental work now under way. I've given you a sampling of what we are up to—and I thought negotiations were busy. We want to be as ready as possible to maximize every opportunity and benefit under the treaty. Our resources are valuable but limited, so we cannot afford to make major mistakes. We're making every effort to get our pre-implementation work done, and done well.

I really have to compliment my treaty staff, almost all of whom are here today. They have courageously transformed themselves from a world-class negotiating team to a world-class implementation team. This demonstrates the collective belief we have in this treaty. We are a small number, yes, but with the team, I know our future is in good hands indeed.

In closing, I have to say that this treaty is a good deal for Tsawwassen First Nation. My responsibility was to negotiate the best treaty I could for my community. I had to be pragmatic and accept things that weren't palatable, but the overall impact will transform my community.

We could not afford to wait for the perfect agreement. The world is changing, and we have to change as well. The poverty and inadequate governance structure of the Indian Act is not sustainable. I refuse to see another generation lost.

When I started to work for my community nearly 18 years ago, my goal was to advance the conditions for my community. It has become even more important and meaningful for me now that I have two daughters, aged 4 and 17 months. Ten more years at the negotiation table would not have served my community. It became clear that we needed to move away from negotiations and to roll up our sleeves to start rebuilding our community. None of this would have been possible without a treaty.

We recognize that the treaty is only a tool box. Hard work is still required, but at least it can be done with tools that can make a difference. We will have to work on poor education rates and underemployment and a gamut of poor socio-economic conditions. We have never fooled ourselves that a treaty would be utopia with a bow on it.

Be that as it may, I can't wait to see what the Tsawwassen First Nation will look like 10 years from now. The legacy we're building for my community and our future generations is so much better. It is with great pride, optimism, and determination that we face our destiny. We have already turned all our energy toward implementing the treaty, and for us there is no turning back.

I'd like to thank the committee for providing me with the honour of presenting to you today. I hope you have observed the enthusiasm and passion that my team and I feel about this treaty.

Rather than summarize the facts of the treaty, I hope to impart the opportunity and the on-the-ground transformation the treaty will provide to my community. Our future looks very bright--filled with hope and optimism.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Barry Devolin]

Thank you, Chief Baird.

In being here today and addressing our committee, you are indirectly addressing the Parliament of Canada. Your words will form part of that public record, and we felt that was important. We appreciate you being here on fairly short notice to speak to our committee to move this forward.

As I said, we will have a single round of questions, seven minutes per caucus. I'd like to begin with Ms. Karetak-Lindell from the Liberal Party.

You have seven minutes.

[Nancy Karetak-Lindell, Liberal, Nunavut, NU]

Thank you very much. I'll be sharing my time with Mr. Russell.

First of all, as a beneficiary myself, I know the feeling that your band and you must be going through. I congratulate you on the work. I'm always amazed by and very proud of the professionalism of the people. They do rise to the challenges before them, and I'm sure your team is no exception to that.

I have more of a general statement, and you can comment. I'm always amazed, when we have incredible land claims agreements that come before the House of Commons...and yes, there will always be opposition. But we as a country are always helping other countries protect their human rights. We're in Afghanistan to help the people there. We go to other countries to make sure there's democracy, but we tend to forget our own backyard. To think that we don't want to give people an opportunity to get out of the Indian Act is sometimes very difficult for me to understand.

I think the public understanding is changing, even in the 11 years I've been here, but there's still work to be done. I think agreements like yours will help people understand what it is that people are trying to do and how we need to move forward with as many land claims agreements as we can.

As I said, this is more a statement, which you're welcome to comment on, and then I'll let Todd carry on.

[Chief Kim Baird]

The only thing I would say is that I agree, and I think there's a lot of fear by first nations people about change as well, with good reason. So it will be good to have this agreement in place. The sooner we can have it working, the better, so that people can look to it along with other modern treaties in Canada to see how they can best meet specific communities' needs.

[The Chair, Conservative, Barry Devolin]

Mr. Russell.

[Todd Russell, Liberal, Labrador, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thanks to Ms. Karetak-Lindell.

Just listening to you, I have to commend you on your hard work and on the work of the people on your team. I am a member of an aboriginal group in Labrador that is longing for the day when we'll sit around the negotiating table and have our rights affirmed and reconciled with those other rights in Canada. I can certainly feel, as you say, that here is an opportunity for hope and optimism. I am certainly going to continue to help aboriginal people achieve what you guys have achieved--in not a short time but in what must have been a fulfilling time.

I understand, though, that when we resolve land claims and the whole issue of reconciliation, it is also an opportunity to try to reconcile the relationships we have as aboriginal and non-aboriginal people in different contexts and in different cultural milieux and things of that nature. That reconciliation, that getting along under a different set of circumstances, which is what land claims provide, is fundamental. It is vital for the health and the real implementation of this agreement, because we don't live in bubbles. We may have parcels of land, but that's not the whole enchilada, so to speak.

I'm just wondering what the relationships are like between the Tsawwassen people and other people outside the Tsawwassen territory itself. There is some opposition to it. How is that opposition manifesting itself right now? What types of processes are taking place to try to mitigate some of that? The relationship issue is very important if we're going to have full implementation of agreements like the Tsawwassen First Nation Final Agreement.

[Chief Kim Baird]

Part of the biggest challenge is the general public's fear of the unknown. I found in Tsawwassen their biggest fear is, “Will they expect us to fail in relation to land use decisions?” I was surprised when many of the environmentalists and those sorts of groups, which are generally known to be more supportive of aboriginal people, were worried about some of the land-use decisions we'll be making as time unfolds.

Again, we're working hard--I worked hard prior to the treaty and will continue to work after the treaty--to build positive relationships with our neighbours. I'll continue to unite our community from within to try to move forward in a positive way. We've already covered so much ground.

Negotiations, by their very nature, can be very antagonistic. So I was pleasantly surprised by the level of support we've had from INAC on our pre-implementation activities. I stated the need, and it's been supported. So far we are very optimistic that the new relationship will happen at all levels, not only at a political level but at a grassroots level as well.

[Todd Russell, Liberal, Labrador, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Barry Devolin]

Thank you.

Monsieur Lemay, vous avez sept minutes.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

As a little aside, my congratulations to you. Is the interpretation working?