Evidence of meeting #12 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was north.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Patrick Borbey  Assistant Deputy Minister, Northern Affairs, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Stephen Traynor  Director, Resource Policy and Programs Directorate, Natural Resources and Environment Branch, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Timothy Gardiner  Director, Northern Economic Development Directorate, Northern Strategic Policy Branch, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

9 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bruce Stanton

Good morning, everyone. This is the 12th meeting of the Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development. This morning, we have the study on northern economic development on the agenda.

This morning we welcome three officials from the department to help us with our considerations for studying the issues of economic development in the north.

First off today, we welcome the assistant deputy minister, Mr. Patrick Borbey, with a statement.

Could you, in the course of your opening comments, perhaps introduce your colleagues who are with you today?

We'll have an opening statement and then proceed to questions from members.

Mr. Borbey, vous avez dix minutes.

9 a.m.

Patrick Borbey Assistant Deputy Minister, Northern Affairs, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

Thank you.

Mr. Chair and members of the committee, it's a pleasure to be here today with my two colleagues: Mr. Gardiner, who is our director responsible for economic development for the north, and Mr. Traynor, who is our lead director responsible for improvements to the regulatory system in the north. I know those are two issues you're quite interested in.

I do have a short statement. I'll try to keep it toten0 minutes or less and leave as much time for questions as possible.

The November 19, 2008 Speech from the Throne announced the intention of the government to establish a new northern economic development agency as a key element of the Northern Strategy.

The Northern Strategy has four. elements: protecting our arctic sovereignty as international interest in the region increases; encouraging social and economic development and regulatory improvements that benefit northerners; adapting to climate change challenges and ensuring sensitive arctic ecosystems are protected for future generations; and, providing northerners with more control over their economic and political destiny.

As this committee well knows, the north is a region of great economic promise, particularly in oil and gas and mineral development, but also in renewable industries, such as tourism and the emerging fishery in Nunavut. Traditional economic activities continue to be important, particularly for many northern aboriginal people, but the growth in the territorial economies will be in natural resource development, for job; and for businesses. It is estimated that one third of Canada's hydrocarbon potential lies north of 60 with the bulk of that in the Mackenzie delta and Beaufort Sea area and in the Sverdrup Basin.

For every potential, there are challenges, and current economic conditions are different from what they were just a few short months ago. Oil prices have plunged, as well as prices for most base metals that are used in production, such as copper, aluminum, iron ore, tin, nickel, zinc, lead, and uranium. Only gold prices--

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bruce Stanton

Let's make sure we have translation.

Okay. Merci, Monsieur Gaudet.

9:05 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Northern Affairs, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

Patrick Borbey

Only gold prices have kept their value. Even diamond prices have fallen by 40%. This has led to the recent loss of 128 jobs at the De Beers Snap Lake diamond mine.

Falling commodity prices are not the only issue in play. Tightening credit to business is also of concern to business development in the north. Consequently, we have also noted a sharp reduction in private sector intended capital expenditures across the territories, rising from a 15% reduction in the Yukon to a 33% decline in the Northwest Territories and a reduction of 44% in Nunavut compared to last year.

While commodity prices are often cyclical, there are some issues in the north that are not, and they require considerably more effort to ensure that northerners are active participants in the northern development.

These can be grouped in three main categories: enabling environment for development; institutional capacity for economic development; and the human resource capacity. The north is challenged at all three levels.

On the enabling environment for development, northerners agree that more should be done in the way of infrastructure and that the regulatory environment is too complex and decisions take too long.

As for the institutions, I am happy to be here today to discuss with you a new agency for economic development in the north that we feel will bring an added impetus to northern development and address some of the related institutional challenges.

And lastly, there are challenges in the participation of aboriginal northerners in the northern economy, as they often lack the education and skills to participate in the workforce. This impedes their ability to be more engaged in the economic potential of the north.

Today I'm happy to discuss two key elements of economic development in the north that we have identified for action--the new agency and northern regulatory improvement.

Concerning the new northern economic development agency, I'll speak briefly about commitments the government has made towards the establishment of an agency and its planned role and mandate, as well as key milestones INAC is working towards in order to implement these commitments.

The November 2008 Speech from the Throne stated that economic development in Canada's north would be led by a stand-alone agency. This past January, budget 2009 provided $50 million over five years to establish the agency. The creation of the agency represents a change in the machinery of government, which is entirely within the prerogative of the Prime Minister. While he has not made final decisions on mandate, structure, and role of the agency, the Prime Minister has clearly indicated that it would be a stand-alone organization with headquarters in the north and a strong presence in each of the three territories.

In developing advice on the agency, we have engaged in consultations with territorial stakeholders to get their views on the priority activities that should be pursued and how they would wish to work with this new organization to achieve common economic development objectives. We have also talked to the other federal development agencies: the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency, Western Economic Diversification, the Economic Development Agency of Canada for the Regions of Quebec, and the Federal Economic Development Initiative in northern Ontario.

Consistent with these existing federal economic development agencies, the new northern economic development agency will be expected to perform three broad functions: first, the delivery of economic development programming in the three territories; second, coordination of national economic policy and programs in the territories, and where appropriate serving as the delivery agent for other federal departments; and third, research, policy development, and advocacy of regional interests within the federal government system.

We anticipate implementing the agency's mandate and functions over two phases with clear milestones associated with each. In the first phase, currently under way, we anticipate establishing and staffing the new agency and transferring existing and new northern economic development programs. No decisions have been made on which programs to transfer, but strong candidates include the recently renewed strategic investments in northern economic development, or SINED, program, aboriginal economic development programming for the north, and two new programs announced in budget 2009--the community adjustment fund and recreational infrastructure Canada.

Milestones linked to the first phase include organizational design, the appointment of a deputy head, the determination of staffing categories and levels, transitional planning around the transfer of existing staff and programs, securing of new accommodations for staff in the three territories and the National Capital Region, and of course, staffing and training.

An important consideration during the first phase is how best to maintain continuity of service from existing and new economic development programming during the transition to a new agency. This is a key priority and the main reason a phased approach to implementation is being pursued.

In establishing the agency, INAC officials are committed to continuing the engagement of the diverse and vibrant stakeholders across the territories. Since the November 2008 Speech from the Throne, northerners have been consulted in a number of different ways. A context paper was distributed to over 100 stakeholders this January, seeking their views about the agency. A copy of this context paper has been provided to the clerk of this committee for distribution. As well, officials have travelled to the north to meet with territorial and municipal government representatives, aboriginal governments and organizations, and private sector industry associations.

The next round of engagement sessions will start soon. This will be coordinated with the renewal of the SINED program, mentioned a moment ago. Key stakeholders in each territory will be brought together to develop investment plans that will guide the allocation of SINED funding over the next five years. We will use this opportunity to share information and discuss the status of agency implementation and to seek stakeholders' views on the next steps.

While present efforts are focused on ensuring a strong start for the northern economic development agency, we will continue to work with northerners on further developing the agency, including consideration of the development and passage of enabling legislation if needed, and in-depth policy analysis and consultation to identify gaps in northern economic development programming across the federal, territorial, municipal and aboriginal government landscapes, where there may be a role for federal government to play, or where it could make sense to evolve the delivery of existing programs from other departments to the northern-based agency.

As I have said before, the Prime Minister will make the key decisions on the agency and we are ready to move forward with its simplementation as soon as possible.

I'd like to say a few words about regulatory improvement.

One of the most important enablers of economic development in the north is a properly functioning and effective regulatory regime, and its legislative requirements.

Regulatory approval of resource development projects in the north varies by territory, although there are some similarities. Each territory has its own set of legislation governing waters, surface rights, environmental and socio-economic assessment, and land use. The regimes are founded in settled land claim agreements. Projects move through this legislative set of requirements to receive appropriate licenses, permits, and authorizations from co-managed regulatory and advisory boards. These include land use planning boards, environmental impact boards, and land and water permitting boards.

The Yukon is somewhat different than the NWT and Nunavut in that the responsibility for the management of land and resources was devolved to the Yukon government in 2003, whereas the Minister of Indian and Northern Affairs Canada retains key decision making authority in the NWT and Nunavut.

The Northern Regulatory Improvement Initiative was struck, in part, due to the increasing numbers of stakeholders comments and independent reports that indicated we need to reduce the complexity of the regulatory process in the north, particularly in the Northwest Territories. The regime we have in place in the Northwest Territories is now about 10 years old, as established by the Mackenzie Valley Resource Management Act and by various land claims settlements.

We know there have been growing pains and that some are more serious than others. We know we need to increase the efficiency, predictability, and timelinessof these regulatory processes while respecting settled land claims agreements and ongoing devolution negotiations with Nunavut and the Northwest Territories.

In November 2007, Minister Strahl appointed Mr. Neil McCrank, a former chair of the Alberta Energy and Utilities Board, to identify ways to improve the regulatory processes in the territories. For the next few months, Mr. McCrank held over 100 meetings with aboriginal organizations, resource management boards, industry representatives, environmental organizations, territorial governments, and federal departments. He then took all of what he had heard and applied his extensive experience in regulatory processes to produce his report called Road to Improvement, released in July 2008. We have provided copies through the clerk to the committee.

Since then, INAC has been developing a Northern Regulatory Improvement Action Plan that will address the McCrank recommendations along with other needed improvements to the northern regulatory regimes identified in the report of the Auditor General in 2005 and in the NWT Environmental Audit in 2006.

However, as we have been developing this comprehensive response we have not been sitting idle on regulatory improvement. We have developed water regulations in the Northwest Territories and Nunavut. We have been working on a national framework for regulatory board training and orientation. We have amended the Nunavut Land Claims Agreement to eliminate duplication of environmental assessment processes between the Nunavut Impact Review Board and the Canadian Environmental Assessment Agency. We have amended the Mackenzie Valley Resource Management Act exemption list regulations through Treasury Board to ensure one screening for each project. We have provided funding for cumulative impact monitoring in the Northwest Territories, and we have accelerated the development of the Nunavut Land Use Planning and Implementation Act.

Our Action Plan will cover a broad range of improvements. There is still much to do. We still need to address governance issues. There are outstanding commitments in land claim agreements on environmental monitoring in the NWT and Nunavut and there are legislative and regulatory gaps that need to be filled in for the system to work efficiently.

We also have to remember that while some of these changes we need to make are solely federal responsibilities, to achieve the necessary improvements we need to work with aboriginal organizations who have settled land claim agreements, territorial governments, and northerners in general.

Regulatory regimes that produce timely, predictable results while respecting our stewardship of the northern environment and the traditional lifestyles of its aboriginal people are key to the north's economic prosperity.

While there is potential for diversification of the northern economy, its backbone will continue to be the resource development sector. I know the committee is interested in better understanding the full scope of the potential for resource development in the north, and we are therefore sharing a map with you that shows all the mining projects that are currently in various phases of development, from advance exploration to environmental assessment, to permitting, production, and even in some cases remediation.

As I mentioned earlier, there remains much left to be done to improve the north's regulatory systems. I can assure you that our minister continues to work with his colleagues to move this action plan forward and looks forward to providing a complete response to Mr. McCrank's report in the near future.

Thank you very much.

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bruce Stanton

Thank you, Mr. Borbey.

We will go to questions from members.

Members, just as a reminder, the purpose of today's and Thursday's meetings is to really try to scope down so that we can come up with a specific topic on the question of northern economic development. You'll know that a number of members were interested in pursuing a study in this area, but considering the volume of work that has been done generally by other committees and territorial governments on this topic, we are using today and Thursday to better understand where gaps exist where our time could be best spent investing in developing recommendations that would be most suited to addressing the issues that are before us.

Mr. Borbey has outlined two of those potential gaps today. However, I'm certain if members have other questions in regard to this topic in general, our esteemed panel will be more than happy to answer where they can.

We'll go to questions, beginning with Mr. Bagnell for seven minutes.

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

Larry Bagnell Liberal Yukon, YT

Thank you.

Good to see you again, Patrick.

I've got a bunch of questions, so if you could keep your answers short that would be great.

It's great to see Harley Trudeau here from the Yukon office in Ottawa.

In relation to the new agency, I'm glad you were talking about a strong presence in each territory, because there is now an economic development program, so it wouldn't make any sense to have one office delivering 1,000 or 2,000 miles away from the work. Of course I'd like it in the Yukon, being as it's my riding, but there needs to be a strong presence in each riding. So that's good.

I have a question about the Yukon government asking for a coordinating committee on the development of economic development, these new structural changes. When do you think that committee might be up and working?

9:20 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Northern Affairs, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

Patrick Borbey

We've had discussions with all three territories, and we've also received an input document, a short document that's been prepared jointly. We have scheduled a meeting for later on this week with the three territorial representatives. You're going to be hearing from them on Thursday. We'll be sitting down with them to talk about the next steps, including what the best way is to work together, whether through this committee or some other way. Over the months of May and June we will be going to the three territories to pursue a much more focused engagement strategy.

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

Larry Bagnell Liberal Yukon, YT

Following up on that, as you know now, we've also constitutionally created other aboriginal governments in the north. How exactly will you tie them in as governments as well?

9:20 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Northern Affairs, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

Patrick Borbey

That's a good question. We had included them in some of our engagement early on, but we have to complete that engagement. There's more work to be done there in terms of getting their views and their perspectives, not only in terms of the creation of the agency but also on how it's going to operate on an ongoing basis. You're right, we have to take that into consideration.

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

Larry Bagnell Liberal Yukon, YT

You made a very good point about institutional capacities in human resources. As you know, a large percentage of the people in the north are aboriginal people, yet a number of them are having trouble contributing to the economy. So I have three questions in that area.

First, the Auditor General, for a number of years, has pointed out weaknesses in our implementation of land claims, of which there are economic development chapters. I wonder what the department is doing to deal with those issues.

Second, how will the first nations be guaranteed involvement in the new infrastructure funds--the Building Canada fund and the SINED program, when it's transferred to the new agency--to make sure they don't fall between the cracks?

9:20 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Northern Affairs, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

Patrick Borbey

Again, we think this agency can play that integration role in terms of the various components of federal programming that support economic development. You're right, you have to have a direct link among skills development, infrastructure development, resource development, and capacity development. So we're hoping the agency will be able to play that role, by working with aboriginal governments and territorial governments. That's part of the vision, again, to be confirmed by the Prime Minister in terms of the entire scope of the programming.

But there are also some pretty good conditions in place through the land claim agreements or self-government agreements that have been negotiated and that allow aboriginal people to leverage ownership of resources and also the conditions related to impact benefit agreements that are built into the land claim agreements, to leverage as much as possible participation in employment, contracting, and other business that might come out of resource development.

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

Larry Bagnell Liberal Yukon, YT

Before the agency is up and running, how are the first nations going to get their fair share of infrastructure, the Building Canada fund?

9:25 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Northern Affairs, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

Patrick Borbey

Sorry, I'm not responsible for the Building Canada fund. We do have some responsibilities for MRIF, but that's a program that's sunsetting. We will have responsibility for some small elements as part of budget 2009, but that really should be directed to Infrastructure Canada.

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

Larry Bagnell Liberal Yukon, YT

I have two questions for Mr. Traynor on regulatory changes.

It's great that you're trying to deal with the province in the NWT. I definitely agree with that. I just want to speak about my riding a bit, though. As you know, we have the YESSA program in the Yukon, which is leading in the country. You have all the jurisdictions and one environmental program. It reduces all sorts of overlap that occurs in the rest of the country. So I'm wondering, first of all, if you're championing that with the other jurisdictions.

Second, because it's exempt from CEAA, to a large extent, for most projects, will the proposed regulatory changes to CEAA that remove environmental assessment requirements for a lot of projects under $10 million...? I'm assuming that won't have any effect on the Yukon because we're under a different regime, a non-CEAA regime.

9:25 a.m.

Stephen Traynor Director, Resource Policy and Programs Directorate, Natural Resources and Environment Branch, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

You're certainly right. The Yukon jurisdiction was very much touted. We were at a lot of meetings and discussions with the Yukon and other jurisdictions, and at the exploration roundups in Vancouver, which the Yukon often goes to, and that regime was touted as a good regime to be in. Even industry was touting that they were very pleased with that regime that is in place in the Yukon, particularly with the YESSA.

In terms of CEAA, I do not know what those changes are yet, but I can certainly agree with you that, overall, the premise is that it should not have a big impact, given the nature of the YESSA legislation and the regime in the Yukon.

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

Larry Bagnell Liberal Yukon, YT

Patrick, you know that a few years ago it was very high on the agenda of your department to put Community Futures programming into the north because it was successful in the south and a lot of people were asking to put it back in the north. It had actually been in the north. Can you tell me the status of that? Do you think there's any movement on that area?

9:25 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Northern Affairs, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

Patrick Borbey

I'm sorry, but I'm not familiar with the program.

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

Larry Bagnell Liberal Yukon, YT

Okay, I'll leave that question.

9:25 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Northern Affairs, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

Patrick Borbey

I can come back to that, if you want, in writing.

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

Larry Bagnell Liberal Yukon, YT

Okay, that would be great. If you'd give it to the clerk of the committee, that would be great.

You mentioned devolution. Maybe you could update the committee. Of course devolution to territorial governments and first nations is a great way to improve local control over local economic development and resources. How is devolution going in NWT and in Nunavut?

9:25 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Northern Affairs, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

Patrick Borbey

In terms of the NWT, there haven't been very active negotiations over the last number of months. An agreement in principle was tabled, an offer by the federal government, and we never really got a firm answer before the last territorial election. We have been waiting for the new government to take a firm position with respect to the offer that's on the table.

What we have heard, however, from the premier is that he wants to have further discussions on issues of resource revenue sharing and infrastructure. It's really the Department of Finance and Infrastructure Canada that need to be involved.

In Nunavut we have signed a protocol, so we're well under way in terms of the very early phases of devolution negotiations.

9:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bruce Stanton

Thank you, Mr. Borbey.

We'll now go to Mr. Lemay.

9:25 a.m.

Bloc

Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you for being here, gentlemen.

I'm extremely concerned by what is happening in northern development. Last June, those who were members of the committee at the time went to Iqaluit and Pangnirtung, which is way up north. We met the mayor of Pangnirtung and his council. He is an old Inuit, 70 years old, who has been mayor of his community for a number of years. We asked him what he would wish for if we could only do one thing right away for his community. He answered that he would ask up to pick up our waste.

That answer very much struck me. You've tabled a pile of documents, Mr. Borbey, and I carefully listened to what you told us. What is the guarantee? How can we be sure that the main priority will be to protect the environment, the fragile balance in the north?

When I consider the mining development in the offing, what guarantee can we have that the Inuit are and will be consulted, and that the protection of ecosystems is a priority, in view of the development that is starting in the high north, as everyone knows?

There are three one-hour documentaries on CBC television on this subject. I understand that not all committee members watch that channel. However, I believe it would be to our advantage to have that series translated. It is presented on the program Découverte on Sunday evenings from 6:30 to 7:30 p.m. There was one program last Sunday and the previous Sunday, and the third will be on next Sunday. The programs deal with northern development. I find it very hard to see how the Canadian government can ensure that this development will be conducted in a manner harmonious with the permafrost, which is visibly melting, and all the climate changes that are occurring. What guarantee can we have? Is this really a priority that will be taken into account? Otherwise, is this going over everyone's heads? That's the first question. I know my introduction was very long, but I wanted to give you some background.

As for my second question, I heard nowhere in your introduction that discussions had been held with the Makivik Corporation, which handles the northern Quebec area. As you are no doubt aware, there are extensive relations among all the Inuit. I'm talking about those on the east coast, not just from Hudson Bay, but from the arctic and Nunavik as well. Are there any relations with that corporation? Are they being talked about? There will be no development in Kimmirut or Cape Dorset without the Makivik Corporation being aware of it. It will be its people who work there.

9:30 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Northern Affairs, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

Patrick Borbey

As regards the waste, you would really have to give me some specific details. If there are contaminated sites in the north, we have inventoried all of them and have plans to clean them up to ensure we solve those problems. If there are specific cases, we should really be told about them.

9:30 a.m.

Bloc

Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

All right. I'll give you a single example. You may not have noticed because you go there too often, but I personally noticed it because I have gone there two or three times in my life. When I was a lawyer, it was the same thing. We travelled across the north. There are fences around all the airports. There are tens of thousands of plastic bags cluttering up all those fences. We were told that they came from the south, that we sent them to them. Do you understand me?