Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on April 28th, 2009

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

I don't have the section marked, but the Auditor General identified that mostly the large selections have happened. You will have a challenge in the future, because TLE files are smaller, so you will have more of them. You pointed out that you need a better measure than just acreage, because that's not relevant. If you process 10 files as opposed to 35, you will require a significant difference in resources, so what plans are in place? You will have to process more files for fewer acres.

[Martin Egan]

Yes. It's a matter of ensuring that we can resolve some of those issues. There's an issue about Manitoba Hydro easements. If that gets settled, it will kick out about 70,000 acres. It will be fairly easy to process after that. So a number of issues are being worked on. If they can be resolved, it will allow for easier processing of some of these files that have been hung up for a number of years.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

I want to switch gears to economic development. In 1998, sadly, the Auditor General talked about the economic value of uncertainty. This was with respect to comprehensive land claims, but it's the same thing with TLE. Anecdotally, she talked about the benefits of economic development in this report. Has the department made any effort to actually put numbers to the cost for not settling?

[Sara Filbee]

I'm not aware of that. We've been trying to focus on getting the process working more effectively. On the side of economic development, as you may be aware, last fall the lands process and responsibility were pulled in with economic development and put in the same sector. This was done to recognize the huge impact that the lands, as significant assets for many first nations, have on the prospects for economic development. There is also the need to think about how we deal with lands concurrently with economic development issues so we can hopefully be more effective in increasing the economic development opportunities for first nations.

It's quite a piece of analysis in terms of different sites, different potential uses, different lost opportunities, and figuring in the economy's ups and downs. It's an important point, nevertheless.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Very good. Thank you, Ms. Crowder.

We will now go to Mr. Clarke for five minutes.

[Rob Clarke, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'd like to thank the witnesses for coming here today.

Last week I sat in committee and asked the Auditor General how many consultations or meetings they had had with Saskatchewan first nations when they were doing their consultations in order to get the findings for their report. They indicated they'd only had four meetings with first nations in Saskatchewan.

The question is, how many first nations did they meet with in Manitoba in order to make their findings?

[Martin Egan]

I'm not aware of how many first nations they met with on this.

[Rob Clarke, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

How many first nations are in Saskatchewan? Do you know, by chance?

[Martin Egan]

Do I know how many first nations are in Saskatchewan? There are about 72, something like that.

[Rob Clarke, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

What is your opinion: do you feel that consulting four first nations is enough to base a report on?

[Sara Filbee]

We would not be able to comment upon the methodology of the Auditor General. We're here and are happy to talk about her findings and the very important issues that we're trying to work on, but we would not be able to comment on her methodology.

[Rob Clarke, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Currently, for first nations today, how many TLE land claims are still outstanding in Saskatchewan?

[Martin Egan]

We have the latest update on that and we can provide it in writing, but I believe there are around ten claims still being investigated and negotiated. We will get the definitive information for you.

[Rob Clarke, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Do you know the number for Manitoba?

[Martin Egan]

In Manitoba I believe about five or six are still under the framework agreement and have not signed their individual agreements. Those first nations haven't even selected any lands yet.

[Sara Filbee]

As you can see, sometimes we're held up because lands have not been selected. It is difficult to process them until we know what and where they are and so on.

[Rob Clarke, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Thank you, Mr. Clarke.

I will go to Mr. Bagnell.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Thank you all for coming.

Just because taxation on first nations land is a bit different in Canada, I wonder whether you can give the committee the basic “taxation 101” for first nations lands. As a specific example of something you could cover, my understanding is that if treaties were signed 100 years ago on those particular reserves, there's no individual taxation, no business taxation—basically no taxation at all. Would an addition to a reserve that was signed into existence 100 years ago have the same properties, or do they have these new negotiated properties?

The last question you could address in this answer would be on modern treaties. Once again, there are different taxation provisions that some of the committee may not be aware of. Could you outline some of that?

[Paul Fauteux]

I think the committee would be better served if we were allowed to consult our colleagues in the tax policy section of the department, which is actually not part of lands and economic development but is part of treaties and aboriginal government. As you note, these are matters that are negotiated in the context of specific and comprehensive land claim settlements.

Perhaps we could follow that up in writing.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

That would be good.

On the one question, however, do you happen to know whether land annexed to a reserve that was originally established 100 years ago would have identical conditions to the rest of the reserve in all respects?

[Paul Fauteux]

I'm not sure I understand the question; I'm sorry.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

When a reserve was first created, say, 100 years ago in a treaty, there were all sorts of conditions related to it. As I said, one of them could be that there was no taxation of any business or individual—no property tax, no GST, no business tax, no income tax—as an example of conditions that came 100 years ago on that particular piece of land, when it was created. All I'm asking is whether, when you add another 100 acres to that reserve today, inside or outside a municipality, it has the identical conditions to their original property.

[Martin Egan]

Yes. It would take on the same flavour as whatever exists. It would take on the same taxation situation as any reserve would.

Now, I know there's a different situation in the Yukon because of the Yukon self-government agreements--

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Yes.