Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Feb. 5th, 2009

[Chuck Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon, BC]

Has that contract for the engineering been let yet?

[Michael Wernick, Deputy Minister, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development]

I think the RFP is out. That's why we're doing the engineering. So we would see...here are the systems and there are the standards and what's the gap to be filled? We'd be able to give you that number when the results of the engineering study come in.

[Chuck Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon, BC]

On the engineering study, the RFP went out. I don't know if it has been let. It would be right about this time, and the engineering study will evaluate all of the first nations across the country in a technical way. Based on that, I think we'll be able to start developing that, not only with a long-term plan, but we'll have numbers then, and we'll have a much better idea. That has been one of the problems that has been clearly identified. We just don't have that kind of detail, so every year we throw some money in the pot, but no one is quite sure if that's enough because it has not been analyzed. This engineering study will help us do that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Thank you, Minister.

Now we'll proceed with Mr. Albrecht.

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, Minister, for being here today.

I noted with some great degree of satisfaction the number of times throughout your comments this morning and in the paper you referred to economic development. It's sprinkled throughout. It's almost on every page, and on some pages it appears many times.

Many aboriginal leaders and business people have written over the last couple of years about the importance of the economic development among their first nations communities. Last year a number of us from this committee had the privilege of travelling to Iqaluit and Pangnirtung to see some of the benefits of SINED investments. I noted in our budget as well that we're talking about the new economic development agency for the north. I just wondered if you could help me and the committee understand how these agencies, SINED and this new economic agency...with the additional $50 million. If we could have a snapshot of some of the investments that have been made and are planned, that would be helpful to me.

[Chuck Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon, BC]

Thank you.

Certainly in my travels, during the pre-budget consultation for sure, people were desperate to know that the SINED funding was going to be extended. It's been a five-year program, and it predates our government, but because it was a new program it didn't really get up and running for a couple of years. So, really, the impact of the SINED, which is really the only strategic investment we have for the north, has been most acutely felt in the last three years. It has been greatly appreciated. I heard that everywhere I went. They said just make sure you get that renewed because it's really the flagship of our northern strategy when it comes to economic development. There really is no vehicle except SINED. So extending that SINED for the five years and funding it well was critically important, and it's in the budget. That program is up and going. We can give you lots of examples of how it works, but it tends to involve small businesses, everything from environmental cleanup to tourist activities. Whatever the local needs are, it tries to fill those gaps.

The stand-alone agency, though, is also important I think for a couple of reasons. One is it's one of the last areas of the country that doesn't have its own economic development agency. It's important that it be there for the north, because the northern situation is very unique, as we all know. So if you're trying to pick winners and losers from Ottawa or Chilliwack or somewhere else, it's impossible to do a good job of that. We want the northern development agency to be a stand-alone agency that will be housed in the north, with people living in the north, by and large, looking after its application.

Not only will it be useful for economic development, but as we saw in the budget, other programs are often administered by these economic development agencies. For example, the packet of $1 billion that's in the budget for communities under stress is going to be administered by the economic development agencies. So we're going to be able to use the agencies to get that money and access the portion that applies to northern communities that fit the criteria. That northern development agency is going to help businesses, but it can also be used by the government to put other programs into play. We've seen that in my case with the WED frequently. They're the agency that gets input from HRSDC, along with a little from Industry Canada and a little bit from infrastructure, and they put together a package that actually makes a project successful. We need that in the north. That's why it's pretty important, and I'm delighted that this funding is in there for northerners.

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

I would just like to clarify something. In the area where I live, we have what's called the Community Futures Development Corporation, which is run by local entrepreneurs who understand business. In addition to the funds they receive, there's coaching to help these businesses get started and manoeuvre through those early years or some of the stresses they're facing, so that's part of it as well.

[Chuck Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon, BC]

The Community Futures thing is the same where I live. Community Futures, depending on where you are in the country.... I'm not the minister there, but my sense is that it has been tremendously successful in some places because there are so many volunteers who give of their time in mentoring and helping fledgling businesses start and so on. A lot of it depends on which town you live in as to whether it'll be exactly that Community Futures model. I think we have to be sensitive to the northern reality, and if that's the kind of model that will work, then I think we should follow it.

We don't want to be too prescriptive too early. We want to work with northerners to see what is going to work, and if they say that's the model that works for them, then we can chase that further. I think it's important to say that the northern reality is that a lot of communities are hard to get to; there are a lot of transportation issues. We need to ask what it is they need, and then we'll fine-tune this agency to make sure it fits that need.

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

Right.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Mr. Minister, I've been informed you have another commitment. Certainly I know the committee would appreciate the amount of time you have to spend with us. We can proceed with questions for as long as you're able. I know your officials have agreed to remain and continue with questions from members.

[Chuck Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon, BC]

I do have another appointment. I appreciate the invitation, and I'm always delighted to come. But because this week was already scheduled, I do have another appointment I have to get to, so I'm going to have to take my leave, Mr. Chairman, if I can, and leave Mr. Wernick and Mr. Yeates to handle the questions. Of course, the number cruncher over here, Mr. Quinn, will be happy to get into any of those other details on the numbers.

We'll be happy to answer any questions that aren't answered in the next hour. We'll happily answer them in writing, and we'll get those details for Ms. Crowder and the rest.

Ladies and gentlemen, I’m very sorry, but I have to leave now. I have another commitment.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Thank you, Minister.

We should properly welcome the minister's officials here this morning. We have Michael Wernick, who is the deputy minister; Neil Yeates, who is the associate deputy minister; and Jim Quinn, the chief financial officer to the department.

We're going to continue with the second round of questioning, which we're partway through. It's a five-minute round.

We will now go to Mr. Lévesque.

[Yvon Lévesque, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Good day, Mr. Wernick, gentlemen. I will get right to the point, as I only have five minutes. The budget provides funding for northern development. I’ve tried to find some funding earmarked for Nunavik, but I’ve had no luck. I haven’t found anything in the budget about housing initiatives for Nunavik. I’d like to know if the department has any plans in that regard.

Mention is made on page 7 of entrepreneurial assistance for First Nations, specifically Aboriginal peoples. I hope that this assistance will be provided to all First Nations, including the Inuit. I’d like to know how much funding will be available for this initiative. To what extent will the department be able to help contractors working on reserves and in First Nation communities?

There is one other point that I would like to bring up. I do not want to call into question the department’s decision to place selected communities under trusteeship, but we all know the kind of problems that arise when a decision like that is taken. Contractors who live off reserve in Quebec have undertaken some major projects. These contractors, who in the past were paid on a regular basis—in small increments, mind you, but nevertheless they were paid regularly by the community—are now seeing their payments suspended for a period of one, two or three years. I don't know how long the trusteeship arrangement is going to last, but once it’s over, communities that are looking to move forward with some big projects will be very hard pressed to find contractors willing to take on the job. This situation could endanger the health and safety of these communities. I’m wondering if these budgets could provide some kind of funding, prior to the trusteeship arrangement being put in place, to compensate companies that have carried out real, much-needed work.

[Michael Wernick]

Thank you, Mr. Lévesque.

Let me clarify one thing. As far as Nunavik is concerned, northern initiatives such as the Northern Development Agency and the Northern Housing Initiative target all three territories. We are working closely with government agencies like HRDC, the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation and the Quebec Department of Economic Development to ensure that there are no oversights where Northern Quebec is concerned. In terms of the projects and initiatives contained in the budget, I hope that these will benefit communities in Northern Quebec and Labrador. We have been holding talks with these agencies since the budget was brought down. If there are specific problems, I am more than willing to discuss them with my colleagues from these departments and agencies.

With respect to entrepreneurship, let me just say that the government launched two pilot projects shortly after Christmas. I believe the exact date was December 29. One program, the Loan Loss Reserve, was introduced to help Aboriginal entrepreneurs to obtain financing from a non-government source. Aboriginal communities also have an opportunity to take part in natural resources and energy development projects. As you know, the Aboriginal Business Canada program provides support to SMEs, that is to Aboriginal entrepreneurs. Métis and Inuit entrepreneurs qualify for assistance under this program. If you have any specific questions, we will certainly be happy to discuss the matter further with you.

Regarding communities under trusteeship, generally speaking, it is the responsibility of the manager on site to settle the affairs of the Aboriginal government and to pay any debts. What we are dealing with here are financial management problems and a financial situation that is somewhat out of whack. It is the manager’s job to handle the situation. He must act on the basis of priorities. For example, if debts are related to unpaid contracts, then the trustee can settle them.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Unfortunately, Monsieur Lévesque, we're out of time. These five minutes go very quickly.

Now we'll go to Mr. Payne.

[LaVar Payne, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I'd like to congratulate you on your appointment, Mr. Chairman. I'd like to thank our departmental officials for appearing here today, and the minister.

I have a couple of questions I'd like to ask the department. Last year you announced the construction of five new women's shelters, and I would like to know what the status of that is. What expenditures were there for these facilities?

My second question would be on Bill C-8, the MRP bill. Could you tell this committee why you think this is such an important bill that it's being reintroduced at this time?

[Michael Wernick]

On the second, I think you should probably ask the minister. It's a matter of policy. The government thinks it's important to pursue this. The bill was part of the 39th Parliament and would have been considered if we hadn't had the interruption of the election. It's now back and being retabled for this Parliament. I think you'll have ample opportunity to question the minister and other witnesses on it.

It's an initiative to close a gap. There are no clear rules for what happens in the case of a breakup of a family on an Indian reserve in terms of distribution of property and real assets. It's an attempt, after long consultations and many attempts, to close that gap so that just as happens off the reserve, when families break up or there are deaths in the family, there will be very clear rules and ways of resolving those issues.

On family violence, I'll flip to my colleague, Mr. Yeates, if you'll permit me.

[Neil Yeates, Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development]

Thank you.

On family violence, we are proceeding with five new shelters across the country. Construction will start this spring, so they will be finished, we expect, during 2009.

In terms of new funding, there is $55 million over five years to support the entire network of agencies.

[LaVar Payne, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

You have a few more minutes, but that's it.

We'll continue with Ms. Crowder.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

On page 151 of the supplementary estimates (B) it says, “funding for the First Nations Infrastructure Fund to improve quality of life and environment for first nations”.

There are increases there. As far as I understand, the 2% cap is still in place. I know there's a very long list of requirements for infrastructure. There are a number of projects, like the long-term care facility for the Oneida First Nations, the Louis Bull lift station so they can build new housing, and the Lake St. Martin water control structure for flooding in Manitoba. There's a very long list. Given the 2% cap that remains in place, I wonder how some of these particular community needs are being met.

In addition, although infrastructure money has been used to build facilities in the past--for example, the Eskasoni First Nation in Nova Scotia has a new crisis shelter, but it's actually not functioning because they don't have any operating dollars. An article February 4 talked about the fact that this shelter sits unfunded amid the rash of suicides. I wonder where the connection is between the infrastructure dollars and the operating costs. It's fine to build facilities, but if you don't have money to operate them, it's not very helpful.

Maybe I'll leave it at that for a response.

[Michael Wernick]

Thanks, Ms. Crowder. We've discussed this before.

The first nations infrastructure fund is a new tool that we have. It was created in 2007 around the time the government made its arrangements to return gas tax money and GST money to the municipalities. We were able to get this new pooling of resources in the first nations infrastructure fund. It was launched, and it's proposal-driven to supplement our base programs. If there are any issues about the criteria on the Internet, I'd be happy to answer them.

The allocation was about $125 million over five years. It's funded about $100 million worth of projects already. It goes out in calls for proposals, and we hope to keep it going. It's done about 250 projects, everything from small road projects, waste, energy-related things; connectivity is part of it, and eligible categories. That sits on top of our normal community infrastructure programming and fills some gaps. They don't take big projects, but they do fill in some gaps.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Some of these other projects I mentioned probably wouldn't be eligible under this particular infrastructure.

[Michael Wernick]

You'd have to ask me about a specific project. Also, Health Canada would be the people doing nursing stations and those kinds of health-related facilities. One of the things we try to do is make sure that our programs, Health Canada's, and CMHC's housing, land, and the community are coherent, and that's a change.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

So there is a coordination between CMHC, Health Canada....