Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Feb. 5th, 2009

[Michael Wernick]

Yes.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

On the question I asked the minister about, the money that was transferred from the community infrastructure fund to the Nova Scotia education authority, can you explain this? We know there is a backlog in infrastructure dollars. I noticed on another page that they did talk about it, but I just wasn't sure how the numbers lined up.

[Jim Quinn, Chief Financial Officer, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development]

Yes, I think that is the amount of $263,000 that's been moved from contributions to grants for the two schools in the construction period. When those schools are completed, there is an agreement in place that says they have to account for the operations and maintenance of those particular schools, so that money comes out of the contribution side and moves to the grants to run the facilities you were indicating earlier.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

In effect, that would have already been agreed on in advance. It's just a place to park the money until the schools are completed.

[Jim Quinn]

There is an agreement in advance, that's right.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Okay. It's very difficult to explain that to people.

I have a quick question about being shovel ready. I actually did do a written question in the previous sitting of the House around that community infrastructure, and the list we got back was substantially on feasibility work, rather than actual projects. I don't have the list with me because I didn't anticipate getting an opportunity to ask the question today, but in your estimation, what rough percentage of projects are actually shovel ready, given the fact that there were so many feasibilities? I suspect many first nations simply don't have the funds to do the engineering and the permitting and all those kinds of things in this two-year window.

[Michael Wernick]

The department provides the money for the feasibility and engineering, so--

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Given that these infrastructure dollars were being used for that kind of project, I wonder if in the hopper a significant percentage are shovel ready, since we're looking at a two-year window.

[Michael Wernick]

I'm quite confident that 10 schools and 18 water things are actual physical things you will be able to go and touch. They are physical projects that we're quite confident about. They'll also be real, physical construction and renovation out of the A base dollars, and we can report that when the minister reports in March, so I'm not worried about that.

Underneath that, though, as you know, there is a lot of minor capital and other things that are paid for through that budget.

Depending upon where the community is, they might be at the early days of design on a renovation for a facility they know is going to burst the seams because there will be too many kids five years from now, or it might be in a very advanced state of breakdown. That's why the health and safety are important criteria as well. We used a ranking system.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

I'm sorry, we're over time there.

Thank you, Ms. Crowder.

We'll proceed. The two last questions will go to Mr. Bagnell, followed by Mr. Bélanger.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Thank you.

I will follow up on that question about the Yukon Métis. They have also been applying for operating costs.

My question is related to northern housing. I think it was around the time of the 2007 budget that the government got into a bit of a mess. Minister Prentice had said he wanted all the money to go to aboriginal housing--I think it was $50 million--but it didn't go directly to first nations. They ultimately didn't get it all, so they were absolutely apoplectic that we've created governments and the money for them was flowing through other governments. It was actually listed in that budget, both under aboriginal funds and under northern housing for everyone.

It appears the same thing is happening again. I got a call from the northern vice-chief of AFN, who is furious again that there's $50 million allocated for northern housing in the Yukon, but it doesn't specify how much is going to the first nations. It's also listed in the aboriginal section. The first nations don't know how much they're getting. Will it be flowed directly to them to avoid the problems there were last time? I wonder what the plans of the department are for flowing that money, particularly in the Yukon. It might be different in the other two territories because their political structures are slightly different. But how is that money planned to flow, and how will the first nations as governments get their allotments? How much might that allotment be? What are the plans for that? I know it's specified as generic for all northerners in the Yukon.

[Michael Wernick]

I can get you some more detail on that. There were two issues that came out of the 2006 budget, and I think you probably ran into both of them in the Yukon. There was a trust arrangement, which actually predates that budget. It was created by the so-called Martin-Layton deal that amended the 2005 budget, and the Harper government decided to use it. So there was a trust arrangement to get money to the territories, and then there was a separate trust arrangement for off-reserve housing that flowed to the provinces.

We've been getting feedback ever since about what the provinces did with that trust arrangement. Did it actually get spent or not? It's actually the provinces that will have to account for what they did with that.

The northern one did generate some issues in the Yukon about how much of the territorial money was going to flow through to the first nations. In this budget, it's not a trust arrangement; it's a straight transfer to the territorial government. CMHC, I believe, is going to be the federal pen on this, and those discussions would be starting right now in terms of how they'll flow and what the territory would do with it. I presume we're going to have some serious tripartite discussions among ourselves, the Government of Yukon, and the first nations.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

So you see significant amounts of that money still going to the first nations?

[Michael Wernick]

It's a bit premature. I think we'd have to ask the Government of Yukon, which is coming for Yukon Days next week.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

I think we heard that quite clearly.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

You have another minute and a half, Mr. Bagnell.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

I just want to express the concern that the first nations of the Yukon certainly, as governments, want to be treated as governments and not have funds that are meaning to flow for them through other governments. We made those arrangements when we entered negotiations with them. To some extent, they have as many powers in some areas, or more, than the provinces--the Province of Quebec or Ontario--so they want to be treated with that dignity. When such arrangements are made, if this money was meant to go towards aboriginal governments, then it should be specified that it is doing budgets, and hopefully we can avoid such problems in the future.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Thank you.

Mr. Bélanger has the final question.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I just have a couple of quick questions on the supplementary transfers. Can you tell me, on the transfer of $1.6 million to Industry Canada to support the Mackenzie gas pipeline project secretariat, what percentage of that secretariat's budget does that represent?

[Michael Wernick]

A ballpark answer is about 10%, but I can give you a more accurate answer--

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Is this an ongoing thing?

[Michael Wernick]

This is the secretary to the federal officials who are following the regulatory process.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

No, no, the transfers. Are they ongoing?

[Michael Wernick]

Yes. It moved to Industry Canada when Minister Prentice went to Industry Canada. They're the same people and the same offices, but they now report to Industry Canada, and we provided some of the operating costs for the secretariat through this transfer.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

How long is this funding going to go on?