Evidence of meeting #22 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was provinces.
A recording is available from Parliament.
9:35 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Bruce Stanton
Okay, we'll have to leave it at that.
I know it's difficult to get all these questions and responses in. We'll try to give you as much latitude as we can.
Let's go to Madam Crowder.
9:35 a.m.
NDP
Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thanks for coming before the committee.
I think it's unfortunate we only have an hour to deal with this range of the Auditor General's report, so I'm going to start--it's probably no surprise--with family and child services.
When you were before the public accounts committee, or whoever was before the public accounts committee, I think the issue came up around comparability. In a written response to that committee, the response touches on provincial comparability, which I'm still not clear about. Does INAC recognize the studies that were done in 2000, under the national policy review, that estimated federal child welfare funding was 22% below provincial funding levels, and the Wen:de report in 2005 that found a minimum of $109 million per year in additional funding was needed to account for the shortfall? Those were two comparability studies to the province. Is the department using those studies?
9:35 a.m.
Director General, Social Policy and Programs Branch, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
We're very aware of those reports; a lot of work went into those reports.
I'll be brief, because I know there's not a lot of time. In terms of the Wen:de report, our assessment of the report is that it's very useful in terms of the work it did. It raised issues such as how funding formulas should be adjusted for remoteness, what's needed in terms of information technology and in dealing with small agencies.
Our assessment is that the Wen:de report had a bit of trouble itself in dealing with provincial comparability because the information isn't always readily available. It's only when you sit down with the provinces that you can actually get that information.
9:35 a.m.
NDP
Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC
Are you currently, across the board, looking at provincial comparability? Because of course there is that human rights case that's wending its way through the system, which involves alleged racism, because first nations children are funded in many provinces at a far lower rate than they are if they're in provincial care.
9:35 a.m.
Director General, Social Policy and Programs Branch, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
That's correct.
In terms of the complaint being before the tribunal, in Alberta, Nova Scotia, and Saskatchewan, where we have the new models that we've written into the framework and into the business cases, we've dealt with the comparability issues.
9:35 a.m.
NDP
Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC
But that's not across the board at this point.
I'm sorry, I'm rushing through this because I have only five minutes.
9:35 a.m.
Director General, Social Policy and Programs Branch, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Across the board we have information, for example, on caseworkers' salaries and such, but we have more work to do in that area for the provinces not under the new model. I'd just conclude by saying that even though we have three provinces under the new model, we're in discussions with quite a number of provinces and are gaining a lot of information through that. I'll just finalize by saying that the government would likely have more to say to this when it responds to the public accounts committee.
9:35 a.m.
NDP
Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC
In B.C., I understand there's an informal agreement in place, and in B.C., according to the B.C. Auditor General's report, 51% of all children in legal care are aboriginal. Has the comparability been done in British Columbia?
9:35 a.m.
Director General, Social Policy and Programs Branch, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
We have had some informal discussions with the Government of British Columbia, and we do have some information, but not all of the information. For example, in the provinces there are entire ministries of child and family services, so there are some challenges and complexities in terms of dealing with all the different kinds of provincial legislation and the variety of services they offer.
9:35 a.m.
NDP
Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC
Essentially, when half of the children in care are aboriginal, it seems as though it should be a priority to sort that out. When you talk about the complexity, I understand there was a national advisory committee on first nations child and family services funding. Can you tell me what the state of funding is? That was funded through the Assembly of First Nations, I believe.
9:35 a.m.
Director General, Social Policy and Programs Branch, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
I'm certainly aware of the national advisory committee. We have provided some support for some of their meetings. In terms of ongoing funding, I'd really have to get back to you on that.
9:35 a.m.
NDP
Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC
Could you get back to me on that? Because I understand that the funding has been cut, and that's one of the advisory bodies that could certainly deal with the child welfare.
I want to touch on Jordan's Principle just for one moment. Jordan's Principle was unanimously adopted in the House of Commons. I understand that there is a cross-ministry committee looking at implementation. Can you comment on the state of that committee? I'm not sure that it's making much progress.
9:40 a.m.
Director General, Social Policy and Programs Branch, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
I think when my colleague from Health Canada was here some time ago she mentioned that committee. There's a steering committee between Health Canada and Indian and Northern Affairs Canada. This committee meets about every four to six weeks. We largely keep up to date with the case conferencing that's going on. The case conferencing is being done at the community level of practitioners, medical people, first nations, the province, and us.
9:40 a.m.
NDP
Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC
If I may interject, the representative from Health Canada said that first nations were fine with that case conferencing approach, and I subsequently followed up, and there has not been adequate consultation around that approach. I have sent a letter to Health Canada indicating the lack of support for that approach. In fact, case conferencing was used for Jordan River Anderson, and it failed to resolve the jurisdictional disputes. So are you looking at something beyond case conferencing?
9:40 a.m.
Director General, Social Policy and Programs Branch, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
I think the difference is that the case conferencing in this instance is very much with the child-first principles, so the services are provided, and the disputes between the province and the federal government or with Health Canada or us will take place later. I understand that my colleague from Health Canada will be getting some additional information from you, and we'll certainly look at it.
9:40 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Bruce Stanton
Unfortunately, that's about it, Madame Crowder.
I'll say to members that if we don't get through all that we want to do today, of course we're having a subcommittee meeting early next week, and if members feel that we need to explore this further, there's the ability to do that.
We'll move on to Mr. Duncan now for five minutes.
9:40 a.m.
Conservative
John Duncan Conservative Vancouver Island North, BC
Thank you very much.
I'm not going to go on with child and family services. I think I'll give Mary a break here. Northern economic development is something this committee has thought a lot about. We've had quite a few witnesses before the committee.
I'm just wondering if you could describe what the effect of TBS contracting policy notice 2008-4, which is referenced in your presentation this morning, is and when and how that would be reported. Is this really the response to better monitoring compliance with contracting provisions contained in these final agreements? I actually hadn't heard of this notice before your presentation today. It seems quite significant.
9:40 a.m.
Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Treaties and Aboriginal Government, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Thank you for the question.
Yes, it's quite significant in terms of the progress being made. Treasury Board released that contracting policy in June 2008. It's an amendment that brings clarification to the obligation to monitor and report contracts under comprehensive land claims agreements.
Implementation of these changes took effect April 2009, so it's actually quite new in terms of implementation. It was announced in June 2008 and implemented in April 2009. It grants the INAC deputy minister specific responsibility for the holding and reporting of data on the federal contracting activities in land claims areas.
To accompany this policy, we developed a training tool on the web for all of the contracting officers of the federal government so that they understand the obligations we have under those land claims agreements and everybody is aware of them. We now have a system in place to monitor and report back on the contracting issues in relation to the land claims obligations.
9:40 a.m.
Conservative
John Duncan Conservative Vancouver Island North, BC
That reporting back is available on the website?
9:40 a.m.
Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Treaties and Aboriginal Government, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
The first report will be available next October.
9:40 a.m.
Conservative
John Duncan Conservative Vancouver Island North, BC
Will it be reported just to Parliament or will it be publicly available?
9:40 a.m.
Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Treaties and Aboriginal Government, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
It will be publicly reported. It will be on the web.
9:40 a.m.
Conservative
John Duncan Conservative Vancouver Island North, BC
Okay. Very good.
In your presentation, you talked about devolution in the Yukon and about how the Yukon closely resembles a provincial government at this point. I'm just wondering what significant things are still “un-devolved” in the Yukon; they closely resemble but are not there yet.
9:45 a.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Northern Affairs, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
There are some differences between a territorial jurisdiction and a provincial jurisdiction. Those are basically constitutional differences. The territories are still instruments of federal laws. That's a fundamental difference. The Constitution would have to be amended to give the Yukon or another territory the same status as a province.
So there are some differences there. The other differences are related to the land claims and to the obligations under land claims and self-government agreements. The federal government, therefore, continues to be a party to the resource management sector, for example, through the land claims, including responsibility for the act that the Yukon has to manage those responsibilities. The minister continues to be responsible for appointments to the board. For example, a review of the act is ongoing right now. It's a tripartite review.
So there are some residual responsibilities. The minister also continues to be responsible for contaminated sites that predate devolution. As I mentioned in my remarks, we're working with the Yukon government and first nations on remediation of those sites.
9:45 a.m.
Conservative