Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Oct. 20th, 2009

[Odette Johnston]

I think the protection workers will review the case and make an assessment on what the risk is, the safety for that particular child. If it's deemed that it is going to be a high risk, then they will take a look at whether they need to be apprehending these children.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Thank you, Mr. Dreeshen.

We will now go to Mr. Lévesque.

[Yvon Lévesque, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm happy to have the opportunity to ask you another question. In fact, I would like you to clarify something for me.

If I understand correctly, according to Jordan's Principle, children receive care and treatment and subsequently the various levels of government negotiate their share of the financial responsibility. Is that correct?

[Christine Cram]

Yes, you are correct. In some cases, government do not agree with the idea of covering the costs for certain children. According to this Principle, despite jurisdictional disputes opposing governments, the organization responsible for the child at a given time continues to dispense services.

[Yvon Lévesque, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Wouldn't you say that the negotiations currently under way with Manitoba run counter to Jordan's Principle? What I mean is, if an agreement is in place, then there is no longer any need for Jordan's Principle.

[Christine Cram]

I have to say, Mr. Lévesque, that I do not quite understand why you think the situation in Manitoba runs counter to Jordan's Principle. There is a process in place. The case of each child with service-related problems is weighed. We determine what the child needs and who should dispense the services. It is really a matter of resolving disputes and ensuring that the child receives the proper services.

[Yvon Lévesque, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

You say that you are currently in negotiations with Manitoba officials. However, if you reach an agreement with them, Jordan's Principle will no longer apply.

[Christine Cram]

A process is already in place in Manitoba. If Jordan's Principle applies in the case of a child, it is because that child is not receiving the necessary care. The process, which involves all governments, First Nations and service providers, consists of evaluating the situation and ensuring that the children receive the necessary care.

[Yvon Lévesque, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

The agreements centre on the level of responsibility of the parties or on who will cover any financial shortfall.

[Christine Cram]

The aim of the agreement is to ensure that a process is followed and that everyone works together. The goal is to ensure that the proper services are and will continue to be provided and that a decision-making process is followed to determine which level of government must cover the financial cost.

[Yvon Lévesque, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Ladies, not only do you look kind, but you genuinely are kind. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Thank you, Mr. Lévesque.

On behalf of the members, I want to thank you for your presentations to the committee today.

We're going to go into some committee business now, so you can take your leave, and we'll continue. It's very informative, and I think you have noted some of the follow-up items, which we appreciate, I must say. All the members do appreciate it when you get back to us on those items. Merci beaucoup.

Members, we've got one notice of motion in front of us for committee business. As is customary in discussions of committee business involving notices of motion, we stay in public. Before we begin, though, I would like to advise members with regard to our travel dates for the study on northern economic development. This of course has been approved by the House liaison committee and the House, so the travel dates will be Monday, November 16, to Friday, November 20; that will be the trip to Whitehorse and Yellowknife. In the week immediately following will be the trip to Iqaluit.

It will take place from November 23 to November 25.

So you can put those on your calendars. As soon as we have the detailed itinerary from the logistics officer, we'll get that out to you.

This is the final note. Continuing this week we have our first meeting on the study of northern economic development, on Thursday morning at 11 o'clock. We begin with Minister Strahl and representatives from CanNor, the Canadian Northern Economic Development Agency. That will be a televised meeting, we believe--that has yet to be confirmed.

There being no other questions, let's proceed to the notice of motion. I invite Madam Crowder to speak to the motion, and then we'll proceed from there.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

I think for members of the committee who have been around for a while, we did have Mr. Sapers come before the committee a couple of years back, based on his report.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

For the record, Mr. Sapers is the corrections officer.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

He's the correctional investigator. Although this is the 2008 report, we haven't had an opportunity to have him come before us again. I note in his report there are still significant challenges for aboriginal offenders. In particular, I was approached by the Elizabeth Fry Society, who indicated aboriginal women were seriously overrepresented in maximum security and in segregation. I just wanted to note the correctional investigator's report indicated the percentage of aboriginals has increased from 2.5% in 1987 to almost 20% of the population in prisons now. He also indicates that aboriginal women are often incarcerated in a facility with higher security levels than required due to unresponsive and discriminatory risk needs and assessment tools. He went on to say the Correctional Service's own statistics confirm that correctional outcomes for aboriginal offenders were not improving in many areas that the Correctional Service could positively influence.

Finally, he said the department had indicated it has now set up a national aboriginal advisory committee. Part of my suggestion was that we hear not only from the correctional investigator, but also from the department about progress, and the Elizabeth Fry Society.

That's the rationale for my motion. I'm hoping the committee will support at least looking at this aspect of significant challenges with aboriginal people in prison.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Just before we go into the discussion--and I'll take speakers--for purposes of clarification, Ms. Crowder, you mentioned a subsequent meeting. Are you looking for a full two-hour meeting on the first count, and a second two-hour meeting for the two other representatives?

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

I would suggest that in two hours we could probably do the investigator and the department, an hour each. I would suspect we probably would need an hour with Elizabeth Fry.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Okay, so one and a half meetings, essentially.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Yes, and I know the committee has an agenda, so it would have to fit in wherever there's a gap in the agenda.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Okay.

Are there any questions?

Mr. Duncan.

[John Duncan, Conservative, Vancouver Island North, BC]

I was not aware that Mr. Sapers had come before the committee previously, but I was actually quite puzzled by the motion from the standpoint that this is public safety. It's corrections officers. It's under a completely different department. When I look at the Standing Orders and our mandate, it would indicate that it's not something we would be dealing with, unless we're dealing with something somehow related to the recommendation but within the mandate of our committee and our department. So far, I've heard nothing that would indicate that's the case.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Ms. Crowder.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

If I could just respond, part of the challenge we have is that the conditions in aboriginal communities from coast to coast to coast actually contribute to their incarceration rates, and then the high rates of recidivism. I wouldn't attribute it all to this, but in part, the services they get within the system don't help their reintegration into their communities. I would suggest that because we're looking at broad socio-economic conditions, it does fall within the mandate of this committee to look at it. I'm not looking at it just from the correctional service perspective.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Mr. Duncan.

[John Duncan, Conservative, Vancouver Island North, BC]

If I may respond, if that's the case, you're actually asking for a lot more than a meeting and a half. To put that context into your motion, you couldn't do it within an hour and a half with two witnesses, both dealing primarily with corrections, which falls under public safety.