Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Oct. 20th, 2009

[Odette Johnston]

There's no doubt that when we started with Alberta, there was the framework that was developed. It was based on a provincial business plan, and we have used that as an example as we have moved forward in other jurisdictions. It's a little bit of a delicate situation, however, because each jurisdiction wants to develop one that is more appropriate, and there is some sensitivity that we not actually implement the Alberta model across the country. But what we are doing is developing one based on the legislation and standards of each jurisdiction. It definitely sets out almost a template for going forward with other jurisdictions. We have adapted them based on why this is happening, the circumstances in each of the jurisdictions, the way forward, and what the parties intend to do about it together.

[LaVar Payne, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

I understand that certainly each jurisdiction needs to have their own, but I thought this is quite a positive step in terms of being able to help implement this across the country in the provinces that don't have those agreements now--as you say, maybe using it as a bit of a template, but certainly adjusting it for the needs of their provinces and their first nations people, of course.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Thank you, Mr. Payne.

Mr. Bagnell.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Thank you.

I have a quick thought that you don't have to respond to. Following up on something that Jean Crowder said, it's an embarrassment in Canada that some people don't have drinking water. Fortunately, as you probably know, the plan to rectify that has been ongoing for the better part of the decade, so I would hesitate to even suggest that it's part of an economic action plan. It would be embarrassing, in a country as rich as Canada, to suggest that the only way someone who doesn't have clean drinking water can get drinking water is through an economic action plan.

My question has nothing to do with that, however. It's related to the children in care. What percentage of aboriginal children in care are in aboriginal families, are placed in families?

[Odette Johnston]

No, we don't have that figure. What I also wanted to mention is that when we talk about aboriginal children in care, those may be served by the provinces as well. The stats that we've provided are those related to first nations children who are served by agencies for children on reserve. There's definitely that distinction, because we do not provide services to first nations off reserve, or Métis. They are served separately by the province.

[Christine Cram]

I was checking to see, from among those that we fund, if we could tell you the numbers in institutional care versus foster home versus kinship care. Unfortunately, we don't have those statistics.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Okay. I understand that you don't have the exact figures, but working intimately with the file, I would assume that you could confirm that there are numbers of children in care who are not in other aboriginal homes.

[Christine Cram]

What we could do is see what we do have in the way of data that we could provide.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Okay.

This is my last question. Could you describe briefly the difference between the prevention model and the old model? For example, what do you do to prevent these unfortunate situations?

[Christine Cram]

In the prevention model, you work with a family to address some of the concerns they have. They might have a substance problem, for example, that's resulting in a violent environment. I'm simply providing this as an example. It could perhaps result in a violent household. It could be a variety of things. In a prevention model there are resources available. You develop programs, and you refer the family to the programming they need in the hope they can address whatever the challenges are that are causing concern about the safety of the child in the family home, so that the child can remain there.

There's a whole range of different interventions that are possible, and they have to be tailored to the particular circumstance. Thus, with an emphasis on prevention, we're trying to direct more resources to those kinds of services and interventions.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

So in those provinces where that's now in place, are you seeing a distinct reduction in children having to go into care?

[Christine Cram]

That's what we're seeing now. We're already seeing in Alberta a reduction in the number of children in care, but also a shift in the type of care. They're going from higher-cost institutional care to more appropriate kinship care, which is good. It's also a challenge. In kinship care you need to get families that are able to take in other children and that are in the community, and part of that is to provide the support mechanisms they need to have additional children on a temporary basis in their families.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

So just briefly, in the provincial model, given that the first nations spend the limited money they have on housing already, if you come to a situation, for example, with mould, in the old model you'd take the child away. In the new model, prevention, what are you doing so that child doesn't get taken away?

[Christine Cram]

This is where we, with Ms. Crowder, had a discussion on that. What we try to do, and what the child and family services agency tries to do, is have that child in a safe situation. But they need to work with the communities to allocate the housing resources on those kinds of priorities.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Thank you, Mr. Bagnell, Ms. Cram.

Now we'll go to Mr. Dreeshen, for five minutes.

[Earl Dreeshen, Conservative, Red Deer, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for coming here to give us your presentation today. I was especially interested in some of the issues that you spoke about with respect to children in care.

Perhaps earlier you may have got cut off somewhat when you were talking about clean drinking water and the types of things that have been happening, schools and so on. I was just wondering if you could start by trying to let us know where things have been going this last little while.

[Christine Cram]

Thank you for your question.

On clean drinking water, I'd like to start by saying there have been additional investments, $165 million, into water and waste water facilities, but I think the really good news is that there's been a reduction in the high-risk water systems from approximately 196, I think, to 46. So that's very positive news and we continue to make progress in that regard.

There was also a recent announcement of investments--$200 million for the construction of new schools and major school renovations, and a total of $400 million for housing, which is split between CMHC and INAC. INAC has $150 million of that.

These are all very important investments that will lead to a better situation for children because they're all aimed at reducing poverty and improving quality of life.

[Earl Dreeshen, Conservative, Red Deer, AB]

Thank you.

I'm a former educator and I'm interested in the interjurisdictional cooperation that exists when it comes to children. Again, you don't have to be an educator to know some of the problems that young first nations people have. Now, of course I was teaching off reserve, so I recognize the difference that exists there, but I just wanted you to come back to what you were discussing with regard to Alberta, how Alberta's total funding is allocated to each of the reserves and how we can identify how that funding is being placed.

[Christine Cram]

Are you speaking of funding for child and family services?

[Earl Dreeshen, Conservative, Red Deer, AB]

Yes, sorry.

[Christine Cram]

Actually, the funding goes to the child and family service agencies. So in Alberta, with the introduction of the enhanced prevention model, what we did was work out the appropriate funding formula for Alberta. It's based on a number of components--the number of children, the number of communities. Various elements go into that formula. How it works is that those formulas are applied to each of the agencies. So you have an overall way of funding, and then you apply the various elements of the formula, and that determines how much each of the agencies gets in Alberta. Then they develop a business plan on what they hope to achieve with that amount of funding. We're looking at what they can do in terms of reducing the number of children in care, moving them out of institutions into kinship, and what kinds of prevention services they are going to provide.

So their business plan comes in, and then it's reviewed in the context of the amount of funding they have. Then it's agreed to and they implement. And as Odette and Mary mentioned, there are about three meetings a year to discuss progress against those plans.

[Earl Dreeshen, Conservative, Red Deer, AB]

So again, is that the model that other provinces and territories are then looking at? How far have we gone into that process with other jurisdictions?

[Christine Cram]

We've now concluded with five provinces, and I would say the overall approach is very similar. What you have to do in each province is look at what the cost factors are. Social workers may be paid a different amount in a particular province, so you would line up with what the salaries are for those social workers. The numbers of children may be different. The province may have different legislation that it requires, and so you have to line up the funding and the approach to whatever it is in that particular province. So in each case there are some overall principles on what the formula is, but the numbers that it will kick out will be different, province by province.

[Earl Dreeshen, Conservative, Red Deer, AB]

For my own information, I'm just wondering if you could perhaps give me a bit of an example of the real-life situation for on-reserve children who are having difficulties and need that protection. Can you more or less run me through what happens to the children and how they--

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

We're really out of time there. If you can make that a short response, if that's possible, then we'll carry on.