Evidence of meeting #37 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was tourism.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Rick Lemaire  Director of Cultural Services, Department of Tourism and Culture, Government of Yukon
Richard Provan  Senior Policy Advisor, Government of the Yukon Territories
Harvey Brooks  Deputy Minister, Department of Economic Development, Government of Yukon
Brian Alexander  Deputy Minister, Department of Tourism and Culture, Government of Yukon
Robert Holmes  Director, Department of Energy, Mines and Resources, Government of Yukon
David Austin  Director, Association of Yukon Communities
Pierre Germain  Director of Tourism, Department of Tourism and Culture, Government of Yukon
Chief Andy Carvill  Grand Chief, Council of Yukon First Nations
Peter Johnston  Chief Executive Officer, Teslin Tlingit Council
Stephen Mills  President, Vuntut Development Corporation
Gary Wilson  Representative, Tr'ondëk Hwëch'in First Nation
Victoria Fred  Lawyer, Teslin Tlingit Council
Ruth Massie  Chair, Alaska Highway Aboriginal Pipeline Coalition
Jennifer Byram  Vice-President, Pelly Construction Ltd.
Randy Clarkson  Professional Engineer, Klondike Placer Miners' Association
Mary Ann Ferguson  Second Vice-Chair, Tourism Industry Association of the Yukon
Marc Johnson  Member, Board of Directors, Yukon Historical and Museums Association
Sandy Hachey  Executive Director, Tourism Industry Association of the Yukon
Dan Curtis  Executive Director, Skills Canada Yukon
Barbara Dunlop  Film & Sound Commissioner, Yukon Film and Sound Commission
Alex Furlong  President and Chief Executive Officer, Yukon Federation of Labour
Andrew Finton  Founder, Sundog Carving Program, Sundog Carvers
Ron Rousseau  Representative, Yukon Federation of Labour
Rick Karp  President, Whitehorse Chamber of Commerce
Richard Runyon  Second Vice-Chair, Whitehorse Chamber of Commerce

9:45 a.m.

Conservative

LaVar Payne Conservative Medicine Hat, AB

Just a quick one on tourism. I took the Alaska cruise last summer and I went on the White Pass Railway, quite an interesting trip in itself. You talked about 300,000 tourists coming to the Yukon. Does that number include all those passengers who come up on the train? There's really no place there. When you get to the top you catch the bus back down or take the train back down.

9:45 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Tourism and Culture, Government of Yukon

Brian Alexander

I'll let this be my tourism director's time to answer. Thank you.

9:45 a.m.

Pierre Germain Director of Tourism, Department of Tourism and Culture, Government of Yukon

The visit to the Yukon does not include those who take the White Pass Railway to the summit and then back down to Skagway. It only includes individuals who cross the border into Yukon for one or more nights.

9:45 a.m.

Conservative

LaVar Payne Conservative Medicine Hat, AB

The reason I ask is we were told something like 400,000 people take that train.

9:45 a.m.

Director of Tourism, Department of Tourism and Culture, Government of Yukon

Pierre Germain

Correct. To put it in perspective, the Yukon gets 300,000 visitors per year, and the port of Skagway will receive in excess of 700,000 to 800,000 visitors per year on the cruise ships.

9:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bruce Stanton

That's a good reason to get that car rental thing working a little better.

Let's go to Mr. Rickford, and then we'll wrap up with Mr. Russell.

Mr. Dreeshen, we'll get you in the next round.

9:45 a.m.

Conservative

Greg Rickford Conservative Kenora, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses. My name is Greg Rickford, and I am the member of Parliament for the great riding of Kenora of northwestern Ontario--or “Mantario”, as we prefer to call it.

We share some common elements in terms of our size and some of the challenges with respect to transporting materials to isolated and remote communities. Certainly, Mr. Austin, I hear you on a number of key municipal issues. I'm going to flesh out some of that, but unfortunately within the confines of five minutes I may not get there.

I do want to say, gentlemen, that one of the things we're finding in the Kenora riding is our region can't sustain the kinds of companies that are required for some of the larger-scale projects. We accept that to a certain extent. So what we've done, Mr. Austin, which you might have some appreciation of, is we worked within the towns and cities and we have inventoried the projects that have evolved from the Building Canada fund, the infrastructure stimulus fund, recreational infrastructure Canada program, and Canada's community adjustment fund on a community-to-community basis to understand the province's and the federal government's employment programs, the people who have been awarded those contracts in cases where that's already been completed, and obviously anybody else in the private sector in those communities to understand how we can get the most out of local people for local projects. That's a context thing.

My questions may be for Mr. Austin and Mr. Holmes. I want to talk briefly in the last couple of minutes here about tourism, predominantly as the chair of the all-party tourism caucus and working closely with the Canadian Tourism Commission and TIAC, the Tourism Industry Association of Canada. Today we're hosting a wonderful event I can't be there for.

Mr. Alexander, you raised some issues around human resource capacity and capital access with respect to first nations and tourism. I'm going to refer to Mr. Holmes's comments about the number of settled land claim agreements, which I know have provided significant resources for things like tourism and mining in the process of settling those claims. I would think of the southwest Yukon project that established the settlement of a land claim in the Alsek Renewable Resource Council that identified specific dollars for those communities to develop those sectors.

Can you speak more specifically to both if there's time on what existing human resource capacity issues and capital access issues are out there when these resources were made available through part of those land claims, in significant amounts, in my understanding?

9:50 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Tourism and Culture, Government of Yukon

Brian Alexander

Perhaps I'll ask Mr. Germain to provide an answer, but let me say just briefly that we have some wonderful first nations products here in the Yukon, and we have extended on a number of occasions an offer to work with them to develop a product and carry it forward. But there has to be a critical mass that wants to get involved in the tourism product and put the time and effort in to make it come to fruition.

Again, it's one of these things that's in process. We are trying to find a way to make it happen more rapidly than it's happened in the past. To give a bit of historical perspective on this, I would ask Mr. Germain to provide some comments.

9:50 a.m.

Director of Tourism, Department of Tourism and Culture, Government of Yukon

Pierre Germain

I can't speak specifically to elements contained within the various land claims agreements, but we know that within the 14 Yukon first nations, each first nation has been working diligently to develop its own economic development platform and programs. Many have embraced tourism as a key sector for development. One particular first nation I've mentioned is the Gwich'in, who have invested significantly in Air North, Yukon's airline. That is an example. We know of others that are looking to develop product and in so doing increase the capacity within their own first nations to address the needs of their members.

That being said, access to capital remains a critical issue for the industry. As you know, the tourism industry is primarily made up of small businesses. Having access to capital for future or additional development of their products in an environment such as the north, which has a very small window of opportunity to generate revenue, is quite difficult given current lending institutions' policies and programs.

We struggle with that. We have over the last decade, and I think we'll continue to. It will require additional cooperation with the federal government and the numerous programs to access the dollars to advance those causes.

9:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bruce Stanton

Okay, thank you very much, Mr. Rickford, Mr. Germain, and Mr. Alexander.

Now we'll go, finally, to Mr. Russell for five minutes, and then we'll have to wrap up.

Go ahead, Mr. Russell.

9:50 a.m.

Liberal

Todd Russell Liberal Labrador, NL

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I get a real sort of optimism when I'm listening to you. I know that we're discussing barriers and challenges. But when you talk about an unemployment rate of around 6%, which is lower than the Canadian average, when you get more skills and a trained workforce, and when you talk about the investments in infrastructure, although we need more....

I think we have to be very careful when we're talking about investment and infrastructure money related to stimulus money. We're talking about two-year periods and what can be spent in that two years. We won't meet, I don't think, all our infrastructure needs in that two-year timeframe. It's going to be a nice boost, and there will probably be a little acceleration of infrastructure development, but we're going to have to look beyond the two years and what's going to be there then, from a federal government perspective, in terms of investment.

I just wanted to say that while some good things are happening, and you report that good things are happening, I think we have to be cautious about where we're going to be.

What is the unemployment rate in our aboriginal communities? What is the human resource capacity in our aboriginal communities? Because while I get a sense of optimism, all our people--the original people, the indigenous people--have to share in that optimism too. What's your sense? What's happening? We are going to get some first nations' perspectives coming up pretty soon.

From the Yukon government's perspective, when we talk about lack of housing and we talk about infrastructure, is it more exasperated in our predominantly aboriginal communities? And what do we do to overcome those barriers that exist?

9:55 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Economic Development, Government of Yukon

Dr. Harvey Brooks

I think it's a very good point and is certainly one we spent some time on. As to specific figures, I think the first nations should maybe speak to that themselves. But certainly, when we look at economic development, all communities outside Whitehorse, I think, are challenged in terms of looking for opportunities. First nations communities, principally, are the majority. When we look at opportunities outside Whitehorse, tourism opportunities are one of the main areas where we can look for employment potential. But there is also resource development. When you look at some of these rural areas, the resource is there. The development is there. It can provide long-term employment and create healthy communities for a long time to come. Once you get beyond those two principal areas, the opportunity base narrows up fairly significantly. So those are areas we are absolutely focused on.

9:55 a.m.

Liberal

Todd Russell Liberal Labrador, NL

I'd like to get a sense of the employment sector breakdown. You have the federal government, the Yukon government, the municipal government, the first nations government. How many people are employed in that administrative governance structure compared with, say, outside of it? There certainly seems to be a fair number of people in governmental positions.

What would the breakdown be?

9:55 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Economic Development, Government of Yukon

Dr. Harvey Brooks

I don't have those numbers at my fingertips. We will supply those to the committee in writing.

But I suspect that we have, after that, tourism; we've talked about tourism being the largest private sector employer. Small and medium-sized enterprises here do carry the load, as it were, with regard to the economy. Government is very important here, and larger than you would find in southern jurisdictions, as a proportion, but still, the small and medium-sized enterprises are critically important to us. They service some of the major resource development initiatives that we have under way as well.

9:55 a.m.

Liberal

Todd Russell Liberal Labrador, NL

Thank you very much.

9:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bruce Stanton

I notice from the briefing materials, Mr. Russell, that specifically the public administration sector represents about a quarter of GDP. The other three-quarters is—

9:55 a.m.

Liberal

Todd Russell Liberal Labrador, NL

I was asking from the employment perspective.

9:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bruce Stanton

Yes; I don't know that we have it there.

Anyway, that's maybe some indication, at least. It was a very good question.

All right, gentlemen, thank you very much. This has been an extremely worthwhile hour and a half. I think we've learned more in this hour and a half than we have up to this point--in no way diminishing, of course, Mr. Brooks' appearance before our committee several months ago--to contribute towards good, solid recommendations for our study in the months ahead. It has been extremely beneficial and helpful.

We thank you very much for your time.

We are going to suspend now, committee. We'll come back to a new panel of witnesses.

10:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bruce Stanton

We're back, and I'll ask members to take their seats and we'll reconvene.

We're resuming consideration of our study on northern economic development and in particular identifying the barriers or obstacles that stand in the way of advancing economic development for the north and for northerners. We're delighted to be in Whitehorse, in Yukon.

Today we have with us five representatives. We have Mr. Andy Carvill, who is the Grand Chief for the Council of Yukon First Nations. We also have Chief Peter Johnston and Victoria Fred from the Teslin Tlingit Council. We have Mr. Stephen Mills, who is the president of the Vuntut Development Corporation. As well, we have Mr. Gary Wilson from the Trondek Hwechin First Nation.

We are delighted, ladies and gentlemen, to have you before our committee today.

The customary track is that we open with five-minute presentations from four of our witnesses today. After that we will go to questions from members. They also will be five minutes. In fact, I think we do have enough time, members, to go with our first round being seven minutes.

If you've been at one of these standing committee hearings before, you'll know that in the time for questions and answers from members the seven minutes is both for the question and the response. So we encourage you to keep those responses succinct.

Let's begin with Grand Chief Carvill for the Council of Yukon First Nations.

Chief Carvill, welcome. We're glad to have you with us this morning. You have five minutes.

10:10 a.m.

Grand Chief Andy Carvill Grand Chief, Council of Yukon First Nations

Thank you. I want to begin by thanking you for the invitation to do a presentation before the committee.

For Yukon first nations, most of our past efforts have been focused on building in our traditional lands and our governments to provide our citizens with the core infrastructure and governance that are enjoyed by the rest of Canada.

With these efforts largely in place we are focusing our attention on economic development, with the goal of reducing our dependency on the crown and the long-term goal of becoming more self-sufficient. In both cases, of building governance capacity and economic development, funding for the most part has been sparse for Yukon first nations. Although the Yukon Territory receives hundreds of millions of dollars in economic development, most of these funds are consumed by the capital of Whitehorse, with limited amounts of money flowing to the smaller communities in the Yukon.

This is becoming a greater concern. An example is that our highway infrastructure and many of the communities are getting older, and if not properly maintained could, once again, create significant barriers for commerce. There was a report not too long ago on the state of the bridges. There is some concern with the bridges coming up north, as that's how we get our food here in the north. That's just one example.

The lack of moneys flowing to our communities also makes it difficult to provide the core essentials of life such as housing, heating, and clean water. Many of our communities receive only enough housing dollars to build a few homes a year, and some have to do it every second year or so because of the limited amount of funds. With substandard housing in these communities already, their world becomes a cyclical environment of continued dependency on the federal government.

With changes in our traditional lifestyle for food and food-gathering caused, for example, by the critically low salmon runs, some of the moneys that could be spent on economic investment to build our economies get shifted to help to provide food, especially for elders. Scientists have yet to clearly identify the cause of these renewable resources disappearing, but they are having a negative impact on our environment both economically and socially.

Again, medicines that our people harvest on the lands, and the lack of meat in the communities are causing hardship because of the limited amount of economic opportunities or employment in the communities. A lot of people depend on moose, for example, to help offset and put food on their table. If there's a limited amount, then they have to spend more money coming into Whitehorse, and there's a limited number of jobs and economic opportunities in the communities.

We struggle to maintain our college graduates in the communities. Like many third world countries, we are experiencing brain drain. We believe this is caused because our communities can never seem to reach critical mass to encounter the paradigm shift where growth and economic development will occur naturally. Essentially, for many Yukon first nation communities, we end up getting just enough funding to survive, but not enough to have an impact on creating an environment where both people and businesses can flourish.

Yet as a people, we remain resilient and committed to making Canada a stronger nation. We have successfully demonstrated that with our limited resources and support. We can create a viable commerce in our communities using our best and brightest. We have identified and developed businesses in low-cost niche markets for building Canadian commerce. Successful examples of these, as was mentioned earlier, can be seen in businesses such as Vuntut Development Corporation and their partnership with Air North, wilderness mountain biking in Carcross, and world-class mountain sheep hunting in Kluane, and these are only a few of the examples that are shining proof that first nations can be successful not only in business but also business designed to attract foreign dollars.

Through the efforts of INAC, the majority of our communities have both community and economic development plans, but limited or no dollars for the implementation of these plans. Of Yukon's current budget for economic development dollars, INAC's contribution to this pool is 2%, which INAC strategically delivers to 14 competing Yukon communities. INAC's regional office approach to distributing their funds has been to select projects that will provide return on investment or have the greatest economic impact on the region of the Yukon.

The larger pools for economic development are the Yukon government, consisting of economic development and tourism dollars at 17%, and Infrastructure Canada at 81%. These two larger dollar pools are delivered largely not by strategic initiatives to make Yukon a better place to attract business, but by political pressure.

Often these projects do an exceptional job of creating economic opportunities and wealth for a few locals in the region, but, like the 2007 Canada Winter Games, once completed tend to leave behind debt, more debt than economic benefit. Over the past several years Ottawa has invested hundreds of millions of dollars in the Yukon, with very little impact on creating an environment where both business and people can flourish. This has occurred largely because the moneys are not tied to specific plans for building long-term commerce.

Part of the problem is that INAC dollars distributed for strategic impact are small, and the politically driven dollars for the Yukon government in Canada in infrastructure are too high. To complicate the problem, federal programming is designed in Ottawa by people who often have limited experience or have visited the rural communities in the Yukon. The result is often a disconnect on how program dollars can be used, versus the implementation that will work in our human-resource-limited environment.

We are ever hopeful that the new Canadian Northern Economic Development Agency will help to reduce these program design flaws. We have been invited to have some representation on the committee that's to help to steer this project, so we are grateful for that.

Last, instead of honouring our treaties that give the crown legal and legitimized access to Yukon's non-renewable resources, the crown appears to be focused on bleeding us dry financially by continually challenging our treaties in court. As a case in point, we were recently in Ottawa attending the Little Salmon and Carmacks court case that went to the Supreme Court of Canada. Moneys that could be used to build our communities go to lawyers and others to provide the crown with legal precedents on first nation treaties. This was never the intent of the treaties. The crown's current strategy of constant litigation does not put roofs over the majority of our citizens' heads or food on our tables.

In closing, Canada and the Yukon need to strategically identify specific industries in which the Yukon can compete in a global marketplace. Once identified, we need to build an environment that will attract investors from these industries yet look out for the long-term interest of the nations. An example is environmental issues. An economic development plan needs to be developed that focuses on building an environment where Yukon can compete in a global marketplace for business. Economic development dollars would be strategically assigned for implementing each element of the plan, not allocated by political whim.

Finally, as the second-largest landowners in the Yukon after the crown, Yukon first nations also need to be part of the planning process as crown to first nation governments.

Thank you for hearing my presentation.

10:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bruce Stanton

Thank you very much, Chief Carvill. As they say in the region of the first nations in my riding, meegwetch. Thank you for your presentation. I also acknowledge Mr. Richard Runyon, who is accompanying you here today from the council.

Now we'll go to Chief Peter Johnston, with the Teslin Tlingit Council. Chief Johnston, you have five minutes.

10:20 a.m.

Chief Peter Johnston Chief Executive Officer, Teslin Tlingit Council

Gunalcheesh.

I appreciate this opportunity to speak to you today. Welcome to the Yukon.

My name is Chief Peter Johnston, and I represent the Teslin Tlingit Council. I'm here to talk to you about two important areas to the Teslin Tlingit Council in regard to economic development and the administration of justice.

The Teslin Tlingit Council has a population of about 800 members to our nation. We live in a small community that is located 100 miles south of Whitehorse, with a population of about 450 in total, 65% of which is first nation population.

10:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bruce Stanton

If I could interrupt you, Chief, for a minute, could you slow it down a pace? We're doing the translation as we go along. We'll make sure to give you time to finish.

10:20 a.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Teslin Tlingit Council

Chief Peter Johnston

I'm trying to take full advantage of my five minutes. Okay.

We are a population of roughly 450 in our community, which is made up of about 65% first nation population. We are a traditional self-government in Teslin. We have five clans that represent the government body: the Yanyeidi, the Daxaweidi, the Xooxetaan, the Ishketaan, and the Daishetaan. We signed our self-government and land claim agreement back in 1993, then incorporated in 1995, on February 14.

We are a traditional territory of approximately 10,000 square miles. Agreements we have signed on to cover a wide range of issues, such as citizenship, land use plan, economic development, heritage, water, fish and wildlife, forestry, taxation, etc. Self-government agreements provide for the recognition of Teslin Tlingit Council's exclusive and concurrent and paramount authority to govern their own lands and their citizens in regard to sections 13.1 and 13.2, the citizen-based laws of the self-government agreement, as well as providing for programs and services funding arrangements.

The Teslin Tlingit Council's objectives and priorities are to incorporate the Tlingit ways into all operations of the government, to maximize Tlingit control, jurisdiction, and accountability, and also to achieve economic self-sufficiency and exercise good common governance. With economic development, we created an economic development arm called the Tle’ Nax T’awei limited partnership back in 1998.

The mission statement for the Tle’ Nax T’awei group is to provide us with a financial return and promote self-sufficiency for the Teslin Tlingit First Nation and its people, well incorporated in Ha Kus Tayea, the Tlingit way. Tie' Nax T'awei--

10:20 a.m.

Bloc

Yvon Lévesque Bloc Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC

You are still talking a bit too quickly.