Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Nov. 26th, 2009

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Mr. Chairman, I was waiting for the interpreter to finish.

Have you sensed — encourage us a little, give us a chance — that there were programs being put in place in correctional centres to help Aboriginals succeed?

[Howard Sapers]

I'm in the position where I deal primarily with mistakes, failings, errors, and gaps. So when I report, I report on those from that perspective.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

That will have to do it, Mr. Sapers.

We must move on to the next speaker.

Madam Crowder.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for coming before the committee.

I'll start with two questions, and if I have time I'll go to the third. The two questions are linked.

In recommendation 12 of your report, you indicated that the Minister of Public Safety should immediately direct the CSC to appoint a deputy commissioner for aboriginal corrections. Somewhat linked to that is your recommendation 13, that the deputy commissioner for women should have full and direct line accountability, and therefore accountability for all matters concerning federally sentenced women.

In the department's response they talk about the aboriginal initiatives directorate, and see this as being a sufficient answer to dealing with the challenges facing the aboriginal population within the prisons. Linked to that, I believe you also raised the issues around reporting, and one of the ways we know there have been changes is that there's sufficient reporting. In the department's response they also talked about strengthened accountability and a template for results reporting and monitoring that will identify concrete actions to be taken, and specific accountability.

I'd like you to address the department's response to your recommendations, both on the appointment of the commissioner and the line authority for women, and on the statistical aspect of it, and whether their action, in your view, is sufficient to address the issues you've raised.

[Howard Sapers]

The Correctional Service of Canada has an executive committee, which is really the decision-making body. I believe the commissioner will be providing testimony to the committee later on today, and I think he will be in a very good position to explain how that decision-making body works.

My concern is that for the last decade we've seen very good plans, lots of analysis, strategies put in place, and programs being developed with the current governance model--that is, with having the primary responsibility for aboriginal corrections housed within the portfolio of responsibilities of the senior deputy commissioner, with a DG-level position, lower within the hierarchy of the service, providing support.

That governance structure, in my opinion, has not provided the results that would have been hoped for with the huge investment of time and money that has taken place, which is why we're saying that to expect different results from the same structure doesn't make a lot of sense. It would be time to change that.

I would make similar observations in terms of the deputy commissioner for women, a position created in response to an incident at the Kingston Penitentiary that gave rise to the Arbour inquiry. Madam Justice Arbour made the recommendation that a separate stream for women's corrections be created, headed by a deputy commissioner who had authority over purpose-built, specific women's correctional centres. The position of deputy commissioner for women was created, those purpose-built correctional centres have been created, and those are both positive steps, but the bridge between the two is missing. That deputy commissioner position does not have direct authority and only provides a policy support function.

There are so many reasons why I believe that has been inappropriate. It would far exceed the remainder of our seven minutes for me to enumerate them. They are well documented, not just in our reports but in several reports that have been made on this point.

[Bruce Stanton, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

You still have three minutes.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Great.

Can I just come back to the issue around women? You identified this protocol that you thought was a major concern. Could you say more about that? Just from reading your report, my understanding is that a different protocol is in place for men than for women.

[Howard Sapers]

There is no exact mirror protocol. For men there's a special handling unit, which is the most restricted form of custody we have. For women who present particular challenges to the correctional authority, there is a management protocol, a process that's been developed to very closely manage women who present particular challenges and security risks.

Currently there are four women on this protocol. The service itself has identified that this protocol is problematic, and it is being reviewed. I believe all four of the women on this management protocol today are aboriginal women. I think that is also a reflection of the extent to which aboriginal women are overrepresented in maximum security and in segregation. The most austere and restrictive forms of custody we have for women in this country seem to somehow attract aboriginal women.

I'll ask Dr. Zinger to elaborate on the management protocol if you want more detail on how it works.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

I think more detail is important, because you raised it in your report as a particular area of concern.

[Dr. Ivan Zinger]

The troubling aspect of this protocol is that it's primarily focused on security, trying to manage an offender who often has serious and behavioural problems. The challenge is that the causes of those behaviours are often rooted in mental health issues.

The second aspect of this protocol that raises concerns to our office and others as well is the fact that it's virtually impossible to get out of this status, this protocol. The behaviour required to cascade down, because there are certain levels within that protocol, are so unrealistic for somebody who suffers from a serious mental health problem or has cognitive behavioural issues, perhaps even FASD. All this makes it unrealistic.

As a correctional practice, we do not believe this is an appropriate way of managing women. We're very glad to see that the service is taking steps and consulting to try to find another way to manage those difficult, we have to admit, women offenders.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Thank you, Ms. Crowder and Mr. Zinger.

Now we'll go to Mr. Rickford for seven minutes.

Mr. Rickford, go ahead.

[Greg Rickford, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses.

I'm going to say, from the outset, that the fundamental role of this committee is to discuss, help shape, and set policy to make sure that first nations and Inuit people have the best opportunities available for them to fulfill and make choices and decisions around lifestyle that do not lead to situations that would give rise to incarceration. I think that's an important thing that was echoed by the committee chair the last time you were here. Perhaps I might push it a little bit farther to say that if there's value in this discussion in terms of its appropriateness here at this particular committee, it may be to look at the conditions and issues in the communities for offenders who are returning to their communities that we focus on.

I might also add, through you, Mr. Chair, that I think it's a little bit unfortunate that the critic for the NDP was not available for our expansive tour across the north to see some of the exciting things that are going on, to that end, in those communities. There are still challenges.

I'm going to get to a couple of questions that go to your report, and I'm going to refer to some of the discussion that occurred back in 2007. My frame of reference is that I'm not unfamiliar with this. I have spent a considerable amount of time involved in the Indian residential schools process. I was a signatory to that agreement. Subsequent to that, I acted as legal counsel on behalf of a number of people in that process, including working in the Kingston Penitentiary with a number of offenders who were directly or indirectly affected by the Indian residential schools.

Mr. Saper, in your speech today you talked about the ongoing matter of discrimination. I want to talk about that discrimination, building on what my colleague tried to develop earlier.

Is it because aboriginals are not being treated equitably, or is equitable treatment itself the problem? I mean, I've been in a maximum security penitentiary, and I've seen a number of great programs under way that other inmates don't have access to. I did not in that particular situation see a shortage, nor did I hear about it from the inmates or the first nations people, including liaison officers.

Can you make a comment and update us, perhaps? I know that there was a similar question posed to you the last time you were here.

[Howard Sapers]

I think the Correctional Service of Canada, like all public institutions, faces the dilemma of how to treat all with equality while still respecting individual differences. In the case of aboriginal offenders, of course, we have both constitutional and court-directed decisions that also require historical differences to be taken into account. The Correctional Service of Canada has developed some very culturally appropriate responses to those challenges.

On the other hand, organizations such as the Office of the Correctional Investigator, the Canadian Human Rights Commission, and others have found that on some very key areas--for example, initial penitentiary placement security classification and reclassification--the instruments used, the techniques used, are not culturally appropriate. They're in fact culturally insensitive.

[Greg Rickford, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

I understand that. I know that with respect to the Indian residential school legacy, one of the issues, with respect to prisons, was that first nations had a reluctance to follow further what they saw as Canadian institutional issues when they had already been in that situation, in their view--and I concur--under the terms of residential schools.

I go back to my observations on and my participation in terms of the number of programs available. Quite recently we saw, I believe it was in the Winnipeg Free Press, that as a matter of policy, the Correctional Service of Canada and provincial governments, to the extent they are involved, recognize the importance of culturally sensitive and appropriate resources not for just first nations but, for example, for Muslims, and they create or at least provide access to resources.

I want to move, if I can, to our response. Are you in a position today to respond to the five-year strategic plan for aboriginal corrections? I believe there were five corporate priorities. In addition to that strategy, this year an accountability framework has been introduced to measure progress and to report results.

[Howard Sapers]

In preparing for that response, we commissioned Michelle Mann to author the study that was recently released. What it does is it gives you a frame of reference to evaluate CSC's progress and also the appropriateness of that strategic plan and framework.

I also know that the service was called upon to report to Treasury Board. I believe the deadline for that report was the end of June of this year on the investment they had under their strategic corrections and horizontal initiatives for aboriginals, which reflected.... I can't remember the exact sum of money over five years.

The short answer to your question is that we're going to review that report to Treasury Board. We're going to compare it against the strategic plan--

[Greg Rickford, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Deadlines are important, because this is a discussion that took place--

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

You're about out of time, Mr. Rickford. You only have about ten seconds left.

[Greg Rickford, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Just to create timelines here, in February 2007 we have this report. In 2008 we have, in an intervening period, the release of some very important corporate priorities and an accountability framework that deal with much of the content of this report--

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

I'm sorry, Mr. Rickford. We're out of time.

Members, I'll let you know that we only have time for two more questions. We'll take one on the five-minute round, then we'll take the break.

We're going to go to Mr. Bagnell for five minutes, and that will be followed by Mr. Clarke.

Go ahead, Mr. Bagnell.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Thank you for coming, and thank you for your excellent work.

If you ever feel that your reports--past, present, or future--are not getting the respect due from the government, please write to the clerk here so we can have that information.

Certainly, as the other members have said, it is quite an indictment of the federal government that aboriginal incarceration, already unacceptably high, is actually increasing. This is horrible and unacceptable. It has been brought up many times in Parliament.

A great danger to society comes from...because virtually everyone gets released from prison. They are more dangerous when they get released if there's not sufficient training and rehabilitation, with anger management.

I had different feedback than Mr. Rickford; I'm not sure you totally answered that.

So there's not enough of these, and therefore the government's current programs are actually making society more dangerous because of the lack of this. In fact, because there will be increased incarceration without an increase in these services, it will be even more dangerous, with more victims and more danger to society.

Do you have any comments on that, both for the aboriginal population, on which specific stuff is missing, and for the general population?

[Howard Sapers]

What we have seen, not just in Canada but internationally, is research over time that comes to a general conclusion that correctional programming and intervention works best when there is gradual, supervised reintegration at release from penitentiary into the community. The period of time under supervision and the quality of that supervision and access to community-based programs and safe housing, employment, etc., all comes with establishing or re-establishing life in a community, post-incarceration. We know that is the best kind of correctional practice.

We have been seeing in Canada over the last number of years fewer and fewer, comparatively speaking, releases under conditional release, under day parole and full parole, and more releases happening at the statutory release date or even warrant expiry. This means that time, that portion of the sentence that's served under careful supervision in the community, is being reduced.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

That's a very good point.

I'll just ask three quick questions so I can get them in.

One is the government's looking at reducing restorative justice, which, once again, has a much better success record in preventing victimization and reducing crime.

Second, would northern arctic criminals have a human rights case, in that they cannot have their incarceration close to home and their families and all the support systems that you partly just referred to?

Finally, there are special programs for FASD. My colleague says there is only one recommendation in your report, for a deputy commissioner, in spite of all these problems. Why are you so fixed on that being the solution to the problem, and the only solution?

[Howard Sapers]

I'll comment on your questions in reverse order, if I can.

The reason I've reintroduced the recommendation for a deputy commissioner is that I have run out of imagination. We have made numerous specific, individual, pointed recommendations around programming, hiring, training; around cultural sensitivity; around using sections 81 to 84 of the CCRA with more frequency and a more robust manner; about meeting the human rights challenges that are implicit in having discriminatory classification tools, etc. We've made those recommendations for decades, and we haven't seen the kind of results....

I want to make the point that this is not because there is a lack of awareness amongst the executive and most senior leadership of the Correctional Service of Canada. There is a group of senior leaders in that organization that is absolutely aware of this problem and focused on it. In spite of that, we haven't seen the kind of breakthrough that we would have hoped for.

That's why we come back to this as a governance issue within the Correctional Service of Canada.

Dr. Zinger.

[Dr. Ivan Zinger]

I can take just a short period of time on this.

Somebody asked earlier whether the architecture was appropriate. I think the view of our office is that the Corrections and Conditional Releases Act has everything the services need to move this issue forward. I'll give you a clear example.

There is a specific provision dealing with aboriginal offenders in this piece of legislation, one of which is section 81, which allows the Correctional Service of Canada, via the minister, to enter into agreements for the care and custody of aboriginal offenders by aboriginal communities.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Thank you, Mr. Zinger. We're going to have to wrap it up there. We appreciate that.

Mr. Clarke, for five minutes.