Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Dec. 3rd, 2009

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Ouch.

On page 186, on the implementation of Bill C-21, An Act to amend the Canadian Human Rights Act, you may have covered this and I may have missed it. Can you tell us what progress is happening on reserve around that consultation process and around making sure that people are aware?

[Michael Wernick]

There has been a quite extensive engagement since the bill was adopted. As you know, we have a rendezvous with Parliament in 2011 on the progress report. We've been working with a number of organizations to try to figure out what the impacts would be on communities. I'd be happy to provide you with a progress report on that. We've been out in the field with first nations organizations.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

I think you also mentioned that you could provide us with a list of the PSSSP consultations as well.

[Michael Wernick]

Yes. On Bill C-21, we've been working with AFN, CAP, and the Native Women's Association to get their input. We'll be able to provide a full report to Parliament in June 2011, as you've mandated.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

How's my time?

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

You still have about 40 seconds.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Oh. That's fine.

You will provide us with that list on the PSSSP consultations?

[Michael Wernick]

Yes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Thanks, Ms. Crowder.

We'll go to Mr. Rickford for five minutes.

[Greg Rickford, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you to the witnesses for coming here today again to continue this discussion about the work that we're doing, particularly around northern strategies.

I want to kind of flesh out that discussion today. I just want to make the pre-emptory comment that I have a real appreciation for post-secondary education program spending, Mr. Wernick, but I also believe firmly in having training centres in communities or as close to those communities as we possibly can. In the great Kenora riding, we're seeing, at least preliminarily, how important this is going to be for economic development in our region.

To address my colleague's earlier question about CAF spending, in my riding, it of course translated into a training centre, in fact, in cooperation with Confederation College, right in Pikangikum first nation, as part of the extraordinary Whitefeather forest management initiative.

Furthermore, some of that spending was allocated to the development of a planer mill on another first nation in my riding, Eagle Lake, and the process for getting that under way is taking place.

So it's worth mentioning that some of the issues around post-secondary training also deal in a broader sense with community-based training. I've commented at this committee before, and in fact work for smaller programs, such as those in maternal-child health, to ensure that, again, we have training in the community or as close to it as can be supported. I realize that has more to do with Health Canada's first nations and Inuit health branch.

Those remarks having been made, can you talk about the role of the government in supporting a northern strategy with some remarks or a response to what I've just said? I invite you to talk about a northern strategy in a broader sense, because this committee has been working with on CanNor and the northern economic development study.

In my riding, like those of some of my colleagues across the way there, we feel that our ridings very much extend into some of the regions that are being looked at through CanNor and northern economic development. I'm just inviting you to make some comments on the role of INAC there.

[Michael Wernick]

I'm on the clock, so I'll have to keep it brief.

It's a very good question. I certainly welcome it. I know that this is always a frustration for parliamentarians because they see the responsibilities in several departments and agencies and sometimes it's hard to get a whole picture of that.

There's no doubt that Minister Strahl and I have been given mandates to coordinate and herd cats and bring together a more coherent northern approach across a number of departments. Minister Strahl is kind of the choir leader who brings people together at the cabinet table. We do a number of updates and reports to try to move the northern agenda forward. I do the same with a committee of deputy ministers, and Patrick does the same with officials at his level, and so on.

We are a very big player at INAC, no doubt about it, in terms of our relations with northerners through the agency and through our regulatory role. We are the regulator. We're still essentially the provincial lands department in the Northwest Territories and Nunavut until such time as they're devolved.

We have the negotiation and implementation of treaties and agreements, which have come up several times in this discussion, so we have unfinished business with treaties not met in the Yukon and the lower Mackenzie Valley. Also, we have big implementation issues with the treaties that have been reached across the rest of the north. That's one of our key accountabilities, which we accept entirely.

The other big players tend to be the national defence department, the coast guard, the fisheries and oceans department, and so on. I think the government's decision to create the Northern Economic Development Agency was a recognition, in hearing a lot of feedback, that there were too many players in economic development and that they were too far away from the north to really get it—if I could put it that way—in terms of what works in northern environments.

I think having the agency on the ground is going to work a great deal in terms of community economic development, small business development, figuring out northern tourism, which is kind of different, and those sorts of things. The agency helps.

Overall, I think we've achieved a fair bit of coherence across departments. Sometimes I'm sort of pushing on another department's responsibility, whether it's mapping or surveying or science, but it does actually work reasonably well.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Thank you, Mr. Rickford and Mr. Wernick.

Now let's go to Mr. Martin for five minutes. Then there will be one final short question from Mr. Clarke.

We are in the third round now, so to make this work, let's keep it to, say, three minutes each.

[Keith Martin, Liberal, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

I actually can't. Don't you have until the top of the hour?

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Actually, no. We have committee business.

Go ahead and let's see how we do. Try to confine your comments and we'll try to make it work. Thank you.

[Keith Martin, Liberal, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

Thank you very much, Chair.

Thank you both, Mr. Wernick and Mr. Quinn, for being here.

I'm going to just lay it on the line on a number of issues.

My riding is Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca. The community of Pacheedaht is desperate. Toxic homes and lack of access to potable water have been endemic in the community for years and years. It has not been resolved. I plead with you to please send some members from DIAND to resolve this issue. It is crucially important to the community.

Communities such as Pacheedaht, Beecher Bay, Fort Ware, and Ingenika that I used to fly into and provide medical care to are poor, small, and isolated. They have responsibility for various things, as you know, but they don't have the capacity to implement them. In fact, I believe they're certainly set up for failure. The evidence you see there shows that in tragic ways.

Looking at educational aspects, we know the first nations kids aren't getting into post-secondary education, but they're not even graduating from high school. Many of the kids have to travel for hours to get to school, so they don't bother going and they fail. They don't even get the minimum skills required.

So may I suggest the following?

The first is to further and extend your head-start early learning programs for kids. which bring in both parents and children. The evidence from a 30-year retrospective analysis shows huge and dramatic positive outcomes for children if they have access to these head-start programs that focus on nutrition, physical activity, literacy, and other basics. But you have to bring the parents in. I know you've done some very good work in those areas, but if they can be more widely spread by working with community groups, that would be fantastic.

Second, if you can hold a summit on scrapping the Indian Act and developing a renewed relationship with first nations, I know you'll find a very willing partner. There are many, many obstacles to development that first nations communities recognize. The AFN has laid out a number of those obstacles that are chains around the necks of the communities. I would just plead with you to work with the AFN and remove those obstacles, because these communities cannot develop to their fullest potential.

Lastly, if a development strategy can be put together by working with the communities, then we will have targets, timelines, and objectives and can attach those to financing in an intelligent way that will be congruent with the hopes and desires of the communities. All of us know that in many of these communities the paperwork and red tape they have to go through for development is four times greater than in a non-aboriginal community, so they're set up for failure.

I plead with you to listen to these communities. They have solutions. Please remove those obstacles, because they will never be able to break the poverty cycle unless those obstacles are removed.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Would you like to comment, Mr. Wernick?

[Michael Wernick]

I'll certainly take up your input and advice. It's good advice on early learning. I certainly share that. We'll look into the specific communities you mentioned. I'll better inform myself of those particular ones.

I'd agree with your premise that we have to get out of the Indian Act. If you want to table a private member's bill to repeal the Indian Act on January 1, nobody would be happier than I would. But there's no agreement on what should succeed it or replace it, so it's a tall order.

One of the ways out is through treaty negotiations, which we've been talking about, and through some of the other tools that Parliament has created. The best one, absolutely the best one, is to create a real economy in aboriginal communities and that's why we've put a particular focus on that.

The Indian Act is no regime for people to make business decisions or create and grow businesses. We've tried many, many ways to work around those fundamentals, but the Indian Act is there, at the bedrock of that, as a problem. I hope that one day we'll preside over its abolition.

[Keith Martin, Liberal, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

I just have 10 seconds.

Mr. Wernick, thank you for your candour. I'm glad you said that.

The AFN has done some work in this area. There is, as you know, a desire on their part to be able to pursue this. If it can be pursued in a formal fashion, that would be great.

I also want to thank you very much for the funding you gave to Jane Goodall's Roots & Shoots program. It's a start and a small amount, but I think her Roots & Shoots program is a way in which communities can improve outcomes for the kids. The kids can get ownership of the projects that not only will help their communities, but also will connect them up with kids around the world. It's in 100 countries, it involves 120,000 children around the world, and it's very positive.

Thank you very much for that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

We'll have to leave that as a comment and go to our last speaker.

Mr. Clarke, go ahead.

[Rob Clarke, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My thanks to the witnesses for coming here today.

As you know, we're doing a northern economic study here. I'm trying to find business opportunities for the north that could have spinoffs in our northern provinces. Here is what I'm curious about. How is the department trying to improve ways to implement land claims agreements? Land claims settlements could help to resolve the economic challenges faced by first nations.

[Michael Wernick]

Thank you for the question.

I don't think there's any controversy: first nations that have resolved land claims have much better tools and are doing much better than those that haven't. The fact is that we have resolved all of the Inuit land claims and many of the claims in the north are now being negotiated in treaties.

There are lot of implementation issues. This is being studied by a Senate committee and the Auditor General. There are a lot of one-time obligations and ongoing fiscal tension about funding the various institutions, programs, and organizations. We have an implementation branch in the department that does nothing but chase these agreements.

We're working with the land claims coalition to find a way to be far more transparent with them, with you, and with Canadians about what is in the agreements, what we have done, and what we still have to do. We'll never be finished, because land claims agreements are a new relationship between the crown and those first nations or Inuit groups. There's always going to an ongoing issue about programs, services, and funding. But it's far better to do that within the context of an agreement than to do it within the Indian Act.

[Rob Clarke, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Across the country, how many of land claims are settled?

[Michael Wernick]

Off the top of my head, I'd say there are 21 or 22. Maybe it's 23 with the Maa-nulth treaties and the self-government agreements. That covers all of the north and good chunks of the provinces as well.

[Rob Clarke, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

With the northern economic development committee, we'll be traveling to the north again. What advice could you provide this committee so that it could be of benefit to the department?

[Michael Wernick]

In terms of...? Sorry.