Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Feb. 26th, 2009

[A voice]

They don't have that.

[Neil Yeates]

Oh, they don't? I'm corrected here. It's underlined; HRSDC does not have aboriginal funding. I'm sorry, I thought they did. Let me correct that. They do not have information on aboriginal students. So I guess that means none of us has good information on the experience of aboriginal students.

[LaVar Payne, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

Mr. Albrecht.

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

I want to ask a question that I started to pose in my last round. Was a program like the Nunavut Sivuniksavut program, which is here in Ottawa--and I'm probably not pronouncing it correctly--receive funding through territorial funding? How would they operate a program like they're running in Ottawa? Would it be territorial?

[Christopher Duchesnes]

Thanks for the question.

Yes, the Nunavut Sivuniksavut--and you're pronouncing it very well--is based here in Ottawa. It receives the bulk of its funding from the Government of Nunavut through the FANS program, the financial assistance to northern students program, as well as significant funding from the land claim organization, from NTI. It does receive a minor amount of contribution in the range of $300,000 a year from Indian and Northern Affairs.

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

Thank you.

This is a different tack now, but last fall or spring--I forget when it was--I had the opportunity of attending the National Aboriginal Achievement Foundation Awards, and it just struck me that the way they celebrate the success of many aboriginal learners is part of the key to the puzzle of how we get interest among aboriginal learners to pursue post-secondary education. I'm wondering if there's any clearing house in addition to the National Aboriginal Achievement Foundation that would share stories of success of those who have taken the initiative, possibly in many cases from circumstances that would not automatically lead us to believe they could achieve that success, from very difficult circumstances? If we could have a clearing house or some kind of sharing arrangement so we could get these stories back to different first nations communities, I'm wondering if that could be...or maybe it's already being done.

Is there something along that line that we could consider?

[Neil Yeates]

I think the member makes an excellent point. The idea of role models and aboriginal kids seeing positive role models is critical to their view about whether it's something they in fact can pursue. We do have some of that on the INAC website in terms of success stories and so on, but I'm sure we could do more than we do at the moment. We'll certainly take your suggestion.

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

It's more of an encouragement for all of us, as committee members, to be aware that we have a role we can play here by sharing the success stories across our constituencies.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Thank you, Mr. Albrecht.

Now we'll go to Mr. Russell, for five minutes.

[Todd Russell, Liberal, Labrador, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to come back to that a bit more.

Committee members sometimes ask what the budget is, and when it's a high number some people say, oh my God, that's a lot of money. But we must always compare that money to the need that exists. I believe there is a general consensus that when it comes to primary and secondary education for aboriginal people, there is a gap between the money that's being contributed and what's actually required. There is a gap there.

I know there's a reluctance to remove this 2% cap even though the federal government itself, the Conservative government, had said when it came to the Canada social transfer that they have ballooned the Canadian social transfer to the provinces. They have ballooned that, but for aboriginal people it is at 2%. Why the reluctance to get rid of the 2% cap? I'd like to have some rationale on why there is a reluctance.

My second question is to Mr. MacDonald. It's good to see you again.

The committee recommended the government enter into consultation around access to post-secondary for Métis, non-status, and urban aboriginal people. Has any of that taken place, with a view to direct federal government assistance based on a PSSP model to these particular aboriginal groups?

[Neil Yeates]

Perhaps I'll start with the first question from the member.

I don't think we can speculate on the 2% cap, but I can say specifically on post-secondary education that there are some decisions...or we need to reflect on whether our program should be 100% grant, which is what it is today. We're the only program that is 100% grant; there is no loan component, and that is an issue. Also, should our program be income tested? Again, ours is the only program that is not income tested.

When you look at the world of student financial assistance, our programming is unique. We feel that needs to be part of the review discussion and, as we've said earlier, also the delivery mechanism that's used. Depending on the type of program one wants to run, the objectives one wants to achieve, there's a set of issues there to be discussed as well.

[Allan MacDonald, Director General, Office of the Federal Interlocutor, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development]

Mr. Russell, it's nice to see you again as well.

To answer your question, there's always ongoing consultation with both the Métis National Council and the Congress of Aboriginal Peoples on their educational needs and aspirations with respect to the full range of education.

Having said that, in INAC's programs right now the PSC program we have does not apply to Métis students. I don't think there's anything on the board with respect to that particular program being modified to capture Métis students at this point. But there is a broad range of investments the federal government makes, and I think Mr. Yeates and Ms. Cram have gone through those.

In addition to those investments that go to provinces, and also to which Métis students are eligible under Canada student loans, there's also a number of Métis bursary programs that exist out there. Some are funded through the National Aboriginal Achievement Foundation, which has been capitalized by the federal government; some are put up by the Department of Health specifically for Métis bursaries; and some are put up by our organization as well, in consultation with some of the institutions that are out there.

There is no program on the table right now to specifically target Métis students the way the department is targeting first nations and Inuit students.

[Todd Russell, Liberal, Labrador, NL]

Do I still have time, sir?

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Yes, you have a minute and a half.

[Todd Russell, Liberal, Labrador, NL]

Blessed father!

[An hon. member]

That takes your breath away.

[Todd Russell, Liberal, Labrador, NL]

Yes, it does.

I have to come back to this 2% cap. When you do your review, do you acknowledge that a gap exists between what's currently being provided for primary and secondary education and what the need is? Does any of your analysis give rise to that situation, particularly if you have a 6.2% population growth and the costs have gone up? Does any of your analysis point to a gap?

[Neil Yeates]

In K to 12?

[Todd Russell, Liberal, Labrador, NL]

Yes.

[Neil Yeates]

Yes. We think there is a gap. It varies across the country. Remember, doing the direct comparisons is always a bit complicated in terms of what's in and what's out and so on, but I think in general, yes, we believe there is a gap. As I say, it varies across the country.

[Todd Russell, Liberal, Labrador, NL]

Nobody in the general public would think that aboriginal education, whether primary or secondary, is on a par with that of the rest of Canadian society. Nobody would accept that, either from the delivery of it in the bloody rundown schools to the lack of teachers and the types of resources they have, and to the incomes we see. There has to be more money. They can quote all the figures they damn well please, but there has to be more money.

[Neil Yeates]

The member is probably also aware that there's quite a variation between provinces in terms of per-student funding. Provinces have made different decisions on the level of K to 12 funding.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Thank you, Mr. Yeates.

Thank you, Mr. Russell.

We're going to go to Mr. Duncan for five minutes. I have three more speakers after Mr. Duncan. We don't have too much left to finish up today, so I will be at the pleasure of the committee as to how long we go.

We'll proceed with Mr. Duncan, for five minutes

[John Duncan, Conservative, Vancouver Island North, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to explore this a bit more. You've just explained that the student grants are 100% and are not income-tested. Is it not also correct that it's not transparent and that's the reason we don't actually have very good statistics here? I say this from the standpoint that the choices are very often determined by other levels of other government, by first nation governments, etc. The federal government makes a financial transfer, and at that point, it's actually others that make the decisions. We're not controlling the output. We're only controlling the input.

[Neil Yeates]

Yes, that's essentially correct. We provide funding through our regions to first nation communities. The funding is distributed on a per capita basis. First nations make decisions at a community level about which students and how many students to support within the context of the national guidelines that we have.