Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Feb. 26th, 2009

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Great, thanks.

It's been mentioned a couple of times that 10 schools are going to be built or are replacing existing schools. When those schools are designated, is it possible that the committee could have a list of them and the communities?

And I'm just curious about something else. I know you're well aware of the fact that Attawapiskat has been in the news again. In the access to information documents that came out, one of the comments made in a memo dated March 17, 2008, when a couple of different schools were being identified, was that there was no real issue because the schools were sitting in an opposition party riding.

So I'm curious if that's a factor in determining where schools will be built, whether or not it's in an opposition or a government riding?

[Neil Yeates]

Well, I can say that is certainly not a factor in determining where schools will be built. We use a regional capital planning process to determine priorities.

The only addition to that in this current round, where we have some additional funding from budget 2009, was that we needed schools that were ready to go in these next two years so that we could take advantage of the stimulus funding. So that was the only additional criterion applied to the criteria that we used to rank projects in each region and across the country.

Of course, we'd be happy to provide you with a list of the schools once they are announced. As I say, that'll be taking place over the next few weeks.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

So is any of the $3.2 billion that goes to the provincial government for post-secondary education earmarked specifically for first nations institutions?

[Neil Yeates]

If I understood your question—

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Is there funding earmarked for first-nations-specific institutions, like—

[Neil Yeates]

Yes, there is. We do provide significant funding to the First Nations University of Canada in Regina, which is part of the University of Regina.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

But that wasn't my question. Is any of the $3.2 billion that goes to the provinces for post-secondary education specifically earmarked for first nations or Inuit education?

[Neil Yeates]

That goes as a block fund. None of it is earmarked for any particular institution--none of it.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Okay.

In the Auditor General's report of 2004, in paragraphs 5.65 and 5.66, she talked about the fact that there was “ambiguity in the Department's roles and responsibilities, potential inequities in how funds are allocated, a lack of clearly defined expected results, limited program and performance information, and discrepancies in the information provided to the Treasury Board”. Can you tell me, particularly in your reporting to Treasury Board and Parliament, what actions the department has taken in terms of its own accountability for how the funding is allocated and the performance results?

[Neil Yeates]

Well, one of the challenges we have had and still have is trying to collect the right kind of information. So one of the things we have been able to get some additional funding for is the development of a much better information system for—

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Is that what you referenced before?

[Neil Yeates]

Yes, it's for education from K to 12 and post-secondary education. We think that's going to make a huge difference for us in our ability to report to Parliament and Canadians on the broader education system.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

When do you expect that system to be up and operational?

[Neil Yeates]

Maybe I can ask Ms. Cram to speak to that, because she's leading the charge on implementing it.

[Christine Cram]

It's going to take some time. We're just at the initial stages of developing it.

I just want to raise a couple of things. We think it's very important that the data are able to be linked with provincial data, so that we can track K to 12 children both on- and off-reserve and post-secondary students, because it's not enough just to know about those students who are getting funded through the INAC PSE program. We also want to know information about aboriginal students who are being funded through other means, or accessing Canada student loans and things like that, and in what kinds of programs they are studying.

So we need to work with a lot of partners to ensure that the system is developed to be—

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

So it sounds like a very lengthy process.

[Christine Cram]

It will take a number of years.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

I have a comment. You indicated that 40% of aboriginal children attend off-reserve schools. That ends up being a problem where there are on-reserve schools because the bands have to pay the provincial rates, and often they're funded at a lower rate per student for on-reserve schools. Can you comment on whether that might impact on the band's ability to actually provide quality education on-reserve when they're paying a different rate off-reserve?

[Neil Yeates]

It is an issue. It varies in different parts of the country to what extent there may be a gap between what we refer to as off-reserve tuition costs versus on-reserve. Every year we go through the process of trying to manage all of these different pressures on budgets--

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

But the Auditor General in 2000 identified that as an issue for the department in terms of the department itself not having a good handle on the difference between on-reserve and off-reserve funding.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

We're a little bit over here.

Go ahead, give a brief response if you wish, Mr. Yeates.

[Neil Yeates]

It's an issue that continues to be a challenge. I don't think there's any easy answer for it, because the provinces fund their systems somewhat differently, so we're always in a bit of a catch-up mode with what provinces are doing. We do our best to try to make sure those gaps are minimized, but it is a challenge for us.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Very good. Thank you very much.

Now we'll go to Mr. Payne for five minutes, and then to the first vice-chair.

[LaVar Payne, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will be sharing my time with my colleague Mr. Albrecht.

I have another question in terms of the funding. I'm trying to get a good handle on this. I understand there's a fair amount of funding for post-secondary education for aboriginals. I understand also they may be able to get scholarships and grants. So I'm really getting down to this question: do you have any information, any figures, and have you done any studies in terms of what the debt load is for an aboriginal coming out of university or college?

Second, how would that compare to the average Canadian, all Canadians, going to college or university in terms of their debt load?

Third, if you don't have that, is it possible to get that number for us?

[Neil Yeates]

I think the short answer is that we don't have that information, and I'm not actually sure it is obtainable. This may relate to a question that a number of members have asked. We do not have a student-based information system. We do not have that kind of system. Given the very devolved nature of the program we have, it would be a big challenge to have that kind of system, but we don't, so this means the information that we would roll up is really very limited. But we do know that our program is 100% grant. There is no loan component to the INAC post-secondary education program.

As I think members know--and perhaps it's what the member here is referring to--Canada student loans, of course, is a student case-based system. They would have data on self-identified aboriginal students, so the committee might be able to get that through HRSDC on the experience of Canada student loans, but it wouldn't deal with students in our program who are receiving grant funding.