Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on May 4th, 2010

[Madeleine Dion Stout]

Not directly; not that I know of. I know that I have received representations about survivors who are now living on the streets and are struggling with addictions, but we don't have the numbers. It's anecdotal.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Lemay, you have five minutes.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

I was a bit stunned when Nakuset said that people had to wait until their card was renewed before they could access services. That really worries me.

I want to know whether you share the opinion expressed in the following paragraph:

At one time I used to believe the myth that if our people sobered up, our problems would be solved. Now I know that all that does is take one layer off the onion. We are dealing with a number of different issues...related to our people's experience over the last 80 or 90 years...I believe that the whole issue of residential school and its effects is an issue that's going to take at least a minimum of 20 years to work through.

That statement was made in 1993 and included in the Aboriginal Healing Foundation's final report.

My question is quite simple: do you share that opinion, which was put forward by Maggie Hodgson, a residential school survivor?

[Yvonne Rigsby-Jones]

I do absolutely share that belief. I can share from my personal experience as well, and it links totally to the work that we've done.

We're a blended family, and my husband had children before we were together, and our daughter has been severely impacted by his early years before he was in recovery. Her oldest child has also been impacted. But her younger daughter has grown up in a totally different world. So we're doing our best to assist our oldest grandchild to break those cycles.

The healing for my husband John started about 25 years ago. He's been a very strong leader in finding help for himself, but because we both worked, we also could access service before AHF.

So just in our one little family, you know, from when John started to Lillian's healing journey, now to our oldest granddaughter's journey--Tori's 17--there is still an intergenerational impact being felt by our very own family.

Does that help answer that?

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Anything else?

Ms. Martin, followed by Mrs. Stout.

Go ahead, Ms. Martin.

[Carrie Martin]

I just wanted to add to that.

We're starting to see children of survivors coming into the shelter for the first time, or grandchildren of the survivors. Even if an individual's healing takes up to 20 years or longer, as in the statement, you now have new generations of people who are coming forward for the first time seeking services. That could mean another 20 years for that generation.

As she was saying--these intergenerational effects--you can't put a timeline on how long it's going to take a family or a community to heal from the residential schools.

[Madeleine Dion Stout]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

As a survivor I would like to just underscore what has been said by my co-presenters, but I also think that peeling this onion, at some point you get to the core, and the core means dealing with our psycho-social problems. But it also suggests very strongly to me that not only am I dealing with the problem of the legacy of the residential schools, but my communities are. So then we have to think seriously about structural changes.

Structural changes have to involve the top, the people who in this room are parliamentarians. But it also has to involve catalysts like the Mental Health Commission and it has to involve the on-the-ground grassroots people. Seeing grassroots community-based on-the-ground approaches suggests to me always that there are other levels involved.

I just want to address a question you asked me previously, Mr. Chair, about what is going on between all the different levels of government to make sure that change is sustainable. That, to me, is structural change.

For those of you who know anything about the British Columbia initiative called the tripartite agreement, first nations, provincial governments, and the federal government are working together on health. They're really reframing health so that ultimately first nations will own and administer their own health programs. I think that's very promising. It's never been done anywhere before, and I think it's worth monitoring.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Very good. Thank you, Ms. Stout.

Mr. Bagnell will have the floor last, for seven minutes.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Thank you.

I just have one question. It's about if there's still an ongoing need in volume, and the volume of that need. You know, if a house is on fire, you don't stop putting water on it until the fire's out. So I want to know if the healing's finished.

Second of all, in the recent years, is your volume going up? I know the government agrees that there are still survivors coming out. In fact they've set over $100 million in this budget just for payouts, so there are a lot more survivors coming out who will need treatment. But I just want to know, from your experience with the projects available, does it appear like it's all over, or are the volumes increasing? Is there more healing that needs to be done?

[Yvonne Rigsby-Jones]

Thank you for the question.

With the project I work for, the common experience payments, our wait-lists used to be three to four months and they are now in excess of six months. That says there are more people looking for service. Our client intake person has been in tears in my office because people have died before they got to the top of our wait-list. That's happened a few times in the last year, and that's a really, really hard place to be.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

That pretty well says it all.

[Nakuset]

To your question, I think there is a lot more healing that needs to be done. It's generation after generation. There's also a lot of denial amongst our people about whether or not they're affected by it, and the types of effects are so vast.

I don't speak my language because my mother went to residential school; I don't think Health Canada is going to help me very much with that. I was adopted because my mother went to residential school. I can speak Hebrew, but I don't know very much about my own culture.

That's just me. But all the women who come through our shelter have been affected by residential school, whether their parents went or their grandparents went. There is just so much to cover. That's why it's devastating for the shelter to no longer offer these services, because they come to us.

For eleven years we've had this programming. We could have had 400 people a year--do the math--and all of a sudden it's finished. Now people are walking around with open wounds again and trying to find out whether they're eligible for Health Canada services or not. It's a real shame.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Okay.

Ms. Ford.

[Elizabeth Ford]

I agree there is still a need. And there will still be new people coming. One of the things the centre in Iqaluit had mentioned was that in 2008-09 the centre was welcoming over 4,000 drop-in clients and in 2009-10 there was a significant increase in the number of females and those seeking counselling. Again, for Inuit communities, it did start later. I think this is reflective of the fact that people have built up trust in the programs. Even if they couldn't go in to say they needed counselling, because of the type of programming provided they are seeking healing and they are getting healing in ways that are appropriate for them.

I think that as the programs have grown and the trust was built, it increased the numbers and also the different types of people, the populations like the elders, youth, and men.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Thank you, Mr. Bagnell.

Ms. Crowder, you had a short question?

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Yes, it's a very short question.

When we asked Health Canada when they were before the committee about how long the health support services for the residential school program would last, the answer was unclear. Have you heard anything from Health Canada about how long that program will be in place?

[Yvonne Rigsby-Jones]

I was told that all the services to Indian residential school survivors will sunset in 2012; that's the resolution health support workers and the counselling. That's what I was told recently.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

By Health Canada?

[Yvonne Rigsby-Jones]

By someone at Health Canada.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Has anybody else heard anything about it?

[Jim Cincotta]

At least for the truth and reconciliation national events, they will need to provide support services until all seven are completed. So when that process ends, which is 2014, at least that level of service...but I don't know about at the community level.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Okay. Thank you, Ms. Crowder.

Members, before we adjourn, I want to draw your attention to two things. First of all, on Thursday we will be finishing up the study, in terms of witnesses at least. We have one final witness at the first part of Thursday's meeting, for about 45 minutes, from the AFN. That will be followed by the Auditor General who will be here, and that goes back to our study on northern economic development. We have also reserved 30 minutes at the end of Thursday's meeting to provide instructions to our analyst in respect to the report for the Aboriginal Healing Foundation study. That's what's on tap for Thursday.

Secondly, I would draw your attention to the schedule we have circulated this afternoon, which completes our schedule through until the end of the spring session. I'd ask you to have a look at it.

But the schedule has changed.

Consideration of the draft report on the Aboriginal Healing Foundation will follow the main estimates scheduled for the 27th. That's the only change I would point out.

Mr. Lévesque, do you have a question?

[Yvon Lévesque, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Yes, Mr. Chair. I missed something. We have another meeting this week, right?

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Yes, of course.