Evidence of meeting #18 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 40th Parliament, 3rd session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was nunavut.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Bruce Stanton
Unfortunately, that's the end. It goes very quickly, doesn't it?
Thank you, Ms. Crowder.
Now let's go to Mr. Dreeshen. That will finish up the first round. I don't have anyone else on the list for the second round, so please indicate....
Let's go to Mr. Dreeshen.
Conservative
Earl Dreeshen Conservative Red Deer, AB
Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
I was a math and science teacher for 34 years, so I certainly understand some of the challenges you have in trying to convince people that they are definitely the best courses that can be taken.
Again, looking at the educational and the labour concerns you have, can you address what, in your opinion, is the influence or capacity of aboriginal people to making these meaningful gains in the area of economic development? Is it just the educational training, or are you seeing a lot of support coming from industry to assist as well?
President and Chief Operating Officer, Nunasi Corporation
Thank you.
Certainly there's a lot of input from industry that is going out. I'd like to say that a lot of them are doing it out of the goodness of their hearts, but I think in reality they're doing it out of necessity. When you weigh the options of trying to train someone locally for a career as opposed to, as I mentioned earlier, flying people up and back and forth--which is a reality in the north--you'd much rather hire locally if you can, not just for the cost factor but for what you're doing for the local people themselves. That's very important.
Conservative
Earl Dreeshen Conservative Red Deer, AB
The comment was made that about 19 out of 20 jobs that were available were coming from south of 60. Again, take a look at the thought that you're looking at your programs from 17,000 feet. I certainly understand that. When we were in the north, taking a look at the types of programs they had available, and I compare them.... I'm from Alberta, so I take a look at those things that are south of the 49th parallel. I hear my friends from Ontario talking about being in northern Ontario, and to us that's Montana. We look at the kinds of changes and the thinking, the thought process, that comes from one area...trying to implement that into other areas. I think perhaps those are some of the concerns that people have.
I just wanted you to expand a little bit more on how you feel the barriers, as far as labour force is concerned, can be addressed here in the future.
President, Nasittuq Corporation
You mentioned Alberta. That's interesting. One of our developmental training programs takes place in Edmonton because we don't have those classes available up north. For some of the younger employees to be away for a lengthy period of time in a place like Edmonton is a challenge. That's one of the reasons we're trying to put that emphasis on having more training facilities up north.
Obviously, there are barriers to getting accepted into the program, like the pre-trade exam and things like that, that come into play. This is why I made my earlier comment about the math and science, because in most of those trades it is a requirement. There are other issues that are cultural in nature, obviously, that come into play. It was funny, I was on the flight coming back from Iqaluit not too long ago, and there was a young lady who was all excited to be coming down; she had never seen trees. They were quite excited to walk around Ottawa to look at trees and flowers, which they never see up there. There are some adjustments that we just don't think about because of our southern exposure.
One of the barriers is clearly transportation and transportation cost. For those of us who don't regularly travel, we don't think about it, but a flight from Cambridge Bay to Yellowknife is over $1,000. The flight from Yellowknife to Edmonton, which is probably twice or three times the distance, is $360 this month. If you look at the difference in travel and the budget that represents, those are significant costs. Clearly, anything that can deal with fair access to travel would certainly be a big way to reduce the barriers in the north.
Conservative
Earl Dreeshen Conservative Red Deer, AB
Thank you.
Mr. Page, the committee has heard from various witnesses with regard to climate change in the north and the significant impact on economic development, which you have mentioned, how it's going to affect infrastructure and ecosystems. I'm just wondering what actions the federal government should take to mitigate some of those risks.
Chair, National Round Table on the Environment and the Economy
In my paper I've laid out four, and in our report--I've filed both a French and an English copy of that report with the committee--we are looking at a few things that we think need to be addressed very quickly in connection with it.
In connection with it, first of all, is the integration question that came up in my response to Monsieur Lévesque in terms of his comments. This is tremendously important, because we have to bring the resources and some of the knowledge of the south to the north, and that integration is an important part of it.
If we launch a “University of the Arctic”, or whatever term we want to use here, Laval, UBC, and other universities, I would hope, would be contributing to it in connection with it. Integration is an important part.
Secondly, in connection with it, building codes and standards are fundamental to everything we do. That's one of the real lessons of our report. If you have national building standards that the federal government is trying to enforce in order to build new northern cities or economic development, then we feel there has to be greater input. This is not only in the formal building standards, codes, and practices. This includes engineering programs in universities. It involves the way in which professional societies are today trying to address these issues.
Thirdly, we really do need much more research, north- and south-based research in terms of... There are two really critical factors when we look at climate change. One is that we really don't know today the speed at which this change is going to take place.
We have the results from the last 20 years of winter temperatures in the Mackenzie Valley, and we have a start in other directions, but if the Government of Canada and the territorial governments are going to do their job, they really need to get a better sense of how fast those new airstrips are going to be built and how quickly it will be necessary to relocate certain northern communities and this kind of thing. These are very, very major social questions, not just economic questions.
Lastly, we have--
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Bruce Stanton
We're actually over time here, Mr. Page. Could you shorten it up? Finish your thought, please.
Chair, National Round Table on the Environment and the Economy
I'm sorry. I was just on my last phrase, Mr. Chairman. My apologies.
Lastly, it has to come back to the community level.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Bruce Stanton
Thank you, Mr. Dreeshen.
Mr. Plante, did you want to add something briefly?
President, Nasittuq Corporation
I just wanted to add one comment that is an observation more than anything else.
We talk about national codes, standards, and things like that, but we'd like to make the point that some of the codes and standards developed down south are totally unrealistic for the north. We have environmental standards that require fuel measurement monthly when you just plainly can't even get to the site because it's buried in snow. I think there is a need for understanding on that point.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Bruce Stanton
Very well.
Thank you again, Mr. Dreeshen.
Thank you, witnesses.
Now we're going to go our second round, for five minutes now, so it's a little shorter.
We'll begin with Mr. Russell for five minutes.
Go ahead.
Liberal
Todd Russell Liberal Labrador, NL
Good afternoon.
It's good to see you again, Mr. Butler, Mr. Plante, and Mr. Zehr, and it's good to have you with us, Mr. Page.
I want to concentrate on just one aspect, because many of my colleagues have raised some of the other issues that are important. It's the issue of transportation, particularly marine transportation.
When it comes to Nasittuq, I know that you have huge expenses when it comes to flying in goods and people and that type of thing. But from a marine perspective, has much thought been given to additional marine infrastructure, to docks and shipping and these types of things?
Because we see an increase in terms of the shipping season and the length of the shipping season. I see it in Labrador. You talk to people in Nunavut and other parts of the Arctic and they say, yes, things are being extended. We see cruise ships more frequently than we ever have. We see recreational boating happening.
But from a marine perspective, I haven't seen much concentration on it from a government policy perspective federally--or territorially, for that matter. I'm just wondering what your views are on that and what could we do.
President, Nasittuq Corporation
I'm sorry if I left you with the impression that we don't care about the shipping. We do about 240,000 tonnes of cargo every year and we do all of the fuel transfer using sealift, so we are quite aware of the importance of maritime shipping.
The challenge has to do with the scheduling, of course, and obviously the infrastructure certainly would make a difference, because it drives up the cost. Currently it is extremely expensive to move material, but any project or program that requires access to significant materials can only be done using sealift.
It really becomes a major programming and planning activity in order to get on with the right shipping schedule. We've had projects that have been delayed for a full year because we hadn't taken into account the proper sealift, shipping, or maritime capability. It is indeed important to have the infrastructure to support it.
President, Pan Arctic Inuit Logistics Corporation
I was just going to add to Jacques' comment. One of the things that Nasittuq has experienced this year--and it plays into Mr. Page's comments--is delays in work and in shipping because of the weather. The environmental changes have created more moisture in the air, more snow, and more fog. If you're looking at a gravel beach that you have to offload to, there's no way you can have a barge stop. You can't have people flying in and out to offload. So we're seeing the environmental impact, and we're seeing the lack of infrastructure having a big impact on the performance of work.
Sorry, Tim.
President and Chief Operating Officer, Nunasi Corporation
I will say that as recently as just last year in Iqaluit we had a ship that turned around and couldn't get in due to ice. It got there a little too late. Certainly there is more open water. We're just not yet at the point where people are thinking in those terms. Recently I was at a conference, and I saw a presentation in which one of the shipping companies was certainly talking about a permanent port in Iqaluit, for example. It would make a lot of sense to do that. Another one of the shipping companies has started moving freight from the west coast as opposed to moving it up the Mackenzie Valley as much. So we're starting to identify that those are certainly needs. I'm just not so sure how far along they are, but they are in that frame of mind now of identifying those needs for ports and so on.
Liberal
Todd Russell Liberal Labrador, NL
Mr. Page, you talked about the importance of codes and standards. Is there any movement on this at all? Do you see any evidence that governments are moving in this direction? Because climate change is not something of the future. It has an impact today, and it had an impact yesterday, if you look at some of the communities.
Chair, National Round Table on the Environment and the Economy
I do see some progress on this, Mr. Chairman, and I say this wearing another hat, not the one I'm wearing here this afternoon. I chair the management committee for the international environmental standards association. The ISO 14000 series and the Canadian Standards Association and Industry Canada are the Canadian representatives in that international effort. Certainly both of those organizations are hard at work today trying to look at it. As to whether there are as many resources being put into this as are necessary in terms of the north, I would probably say no, but certainly I didn't want to leave the implication that there was no progress being made here. I think the thing that is of concern to the round table right now is the speed of the change in the north and the speed and the necessity and the urgency of dealing with some of the very real problems my colleagues elsewhere have talked about, and trying above all at this time to engender a greater sense of urgency in this work.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Bruce Stanton
Thank you very much, Mr. Russell.
Let's go to Mr. Duncan now for five minutes.
Conservative
John Duncan Conservative Vancouver Island North, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I get the feeling we could talk for about eight hours and elucidate a lot of issues.
I'm from a rural part of the B.C. coast. A big part of the riding is rural. On a different scale, I recognize a lot of what you're talking about.
Mr. Zehr, you talked about Agnico-Eagle and the red tape. The NUPPAA legislation has been tabled, and the mining sector basically said that was the legislation we could support. In terms of the federal role, was there any recommendation specifically you could make beyond that legislative package, or were those sort of local red tape issues?
President and Chief Operating Officer, Nunasi Corporation
There were certainly both local and federal... I'm not entirely familiar with the report you're talking about--and I'm switching a little bit now from Nunavut to the NWT--but I do know that last year they came out with what was called the McCrank report, and it talked about this very thing, about trying to reduce the red tape and so on, and that was specifically with regard to exploration. Exploration throughout the NWT has pretty much died off because of all the bureaucracy that's been created. There are concerns about the same thing in Nunavut. I'm not sure how the federal report addresses this, but I do know that the comment was made that the regulatory process for permitting should take anywhere from nine to 18 months, and right now it's taking up to four years.
Conservative
John Duncan Conservative Vancouver Island North, BC
Yes. We did have testimony from the chair of the NWT and Nunavut Chamber of Mines. We followed up, and he has now endorsed the new legislation that will affect all of that in Nunavut. So that was where my question went. But I'll move on.
You also talked about P3s in the north. We've been talking a lot about sealift and the difficulties. We have construction under way, as I understand it, in Pangnirtung Harbour. It's not ready yet, but we must have learned some lessons. In terms of the industry and people associated with the business side of things who would like to see a lot more port facilities, do you think that is appropriate for P3, as an alternate way of financing, rather than the federal government always being the cash upfront for all of these developments?
President and Chief Operating Officer, Nunasi Corporation
I believe it is. I think there are some winning strategies there. As I mentioned, in our view, given the huge deficits out there, certainly some of that funding is going to dry up and some of these remote areas aren't going to be on the radar.
I know, specific to the Government of Nunavut, their hands are really tied. They have many issues internally and a lot of large-scale projects to deal with, such as fuel supply, fuel storage throughout the north, and power supply. These are huge projects that certainly the Government of Nunavut doesn't have the wherewithal to take on, and this would be a good answer to help address some of those large-scale projects.