Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Dec. 6th, 2010

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

Very good; I appreciate that. I will also ensure that the officials send you their articulation, because they have come up with an articulation of it.

But when we come back to “comparable services”, my question is this. When the officials were here, they indicated that the provinces are not willing to share much of the information relative to how they provide service. How on earth can you help us so that we have a relationship with the provinces that allows us to get access to that, so that we can in fact define comparable services in an appropriate way?

Can you give us some suggestions on how we get them to share that information?

[Sheila Fraser]

Well, I'm a little surprised that the department doesn't have at least some information on this, because not all of the services are provided by first nations agencies. Many of the services are provided through provincial agencies and are billed to the federal government. So—

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

Are you saying the provinces aren't...?

[Sheila Fraser]

The provinces are billing the federal government, and the federal government is paying provinces for services, so they should be able to know what kinds of services are being given and how much it is costing.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

We do get the basic numbers, but if we want to do comparable services.... It's not comparable funding. It's not just money. It's what are they providing? And they are not willing, at this point, to give that.

So we're going to continue to try to reach a definition. As I say, I think it's a good recommendation, but I did want to bring up the fact that it has been difficult to get to that point.

While we're talking about this new approach, can you tell me what you think about the new approach? Do you think that because prevention services are included...? I've heard you with regard to the funding, although in your statement you acknowledge that 74% more funds will be going to Alberta, given the new approach. I would think that's a good thing, is it not?

[Sheila Fraser]

Well, one would certainly hope, with a broader range of services and more funding for those services, that we will be able to see that they are having a positive impact. Again, I think that's something we will be looking at.

The program is actually only fully implemented this year, I think, so it may be a little early yet to actually see the signs of progress. But we would hope the department would have some kinds of performance indicators in place that could be tracked over time to show how successful this new funding formula is.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

Very good.

The prevention part of this new approach is to recognize the necessity for those children to be in safe places, such as family, such as community members' homes, so the training would be provided.

What do you think, Ms. Lavallée, of gearing towards some prevention? Is an ounce of prevention worth a pound of cure?

[National Chief Betty Ann Lavallée]

Most definitely it is, and that's an issue we've always advocated.

In New Brunswick we developed what they called “family enhancement” whereby we would bring all the services together to address the whole family. We felt that by investing up front we could possibly stop the problem. It might be too late for older generations, but if we can get to the younger generations now and make sure they're in affordable housing, make sure they have health care services, make sure there is counselling for mom and dad, if required—if we can address the whole family—investing now is going to save a lot of money down the road. You're going to end up with productive citizens who are going to add to the gross domestic product across Canada.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Thank you, Ms. Glover.

Now we'll go to the second round, and we'll begin with Ms. Neville.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you all for being here.

I am sitting here listening to all of you, and listening to the extent of the problems and the issues, and struck by the lack of urgency on the part of governments to address them. A year in the life of a five-year-old or a six-year-old or a seven-year-old is a lot of time. A lot can happen during that period. As I say, listening to the lack of urgency in addressing these issues is really quite stunning, actually.

Ms. Fraser, your audit showed that first nations child and family services expenditures were growing faster than the dollars allocated. As a result, funding was reallocated from housing, from infrastructure, perhaps from education--all of which have a profound impact on the lives of these children. In your report you said that this is not sustainable.

Were these relocation decisions made in the context of a larger framework, of a larger plan, or were they done as an ad hoc, stopgap measure?

You indicated your finding, in point 4.73, that the approach is “unsustainable”.

I'd like you to comment on that, please.

[Sheila Fraser]

Thank you, Chair.

I'll ask Mr. Berthelette to give you more precise information, but I can say that it is ad hoc; it is when these communities face expenditures that they have to make and they have to take the money out of other programs because they don't have it within the budgets for child and family services.

Mr. Berthelette perhaps could elaborate.

[Jerome Berthelette, Assistant Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada]

Mr. Chair, I can advise the honourable member that at the time we conducted this audit, Indian Affairs had shifted approximately $500 million from capital facilities, operations and maintenance, income assistance, housing, and post-secondary education to child and family services, to provincial elementary and secondary education, and to some smaller areas such as economic development.

Child and family services had required approximately $116 million a year more in funding, which was taken from these different areas that I mentioned.

In constant dollars, per capita housing expenditures, as a result of these reallocations, have declined by approximately 40% over the last decade.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

To follow up from that, do you have or would there be available a breakdown of that funding by jurisdiction, by province, or do we have to go back to the department for that?

[Jerome Berthelette]

Yes, I'm afraid you'll have to go back to the department. We don't have that information with us. They will, though, be able to provide you with the information from which I quoted these particular statistics.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Do I have more time, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

You have another two minutes.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Okay.

Was there any analysis done by you--and this may be beyond your purview--of the impact of these reallocations on communities, on children, on families?

[Jerome Berthelette]

Mr. Chairman, we did not do that particular type of analysis, and as far as I understand and remember, neither did Indian and Northern Affairs Canada.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Thank you.

Mr. Doyle, you talked about the framework from September 2008 and the fact that there's been no response from the federal government to this framework. Can you comment on what you attribute that to or on what the ministry attributes that to?

[John Doyle]

Thank you for the question.

The actual phrase I used was no “formal” response. There have been discussions between the ministry and the department to discuss different aspects of it. But if you read between the lines, I think there's a lack of resources, and the process of coming to agreement will still be sometime in the future.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

That's fine.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Okay, thank you, Ms. Neville.

Now we'll go to Mr. Clarke for five minutes.

Mr. Clarke, go ahead, and you'll be followed by Monsieur Lévesque.

[Rob Clarke, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank the witnesses for coming in, and the ones from B.C. for making the time to be here in this committee meeting.

I grew up in B.C., and being first nations myself, I got to see a lot of foster children coming through my parents' door. I saw the cycle that aboriginal people have to go through.

Later on in life, when I joined the police force, the RCMP, and was stationed in first nations communities, I saw the cycle repeated over and over again. I saw children having children. It was an ongoing cycle.

My foster brother still lives in British Columbia. He has become pretty much a foster parent, just from my parents' teachings, in taking children into the home and giving them hopefully a better life.

Now, we're talking about the province of British Columbia here, and I'm very interested in the province. I'm wondering what type of successes you have had there with regard to aboriginal child welfare.

[John Doyle]

Thank you for the question.

I'll read you one of the recommendations we made, recommendation ten:

We recommend the ministry provide information to the Legislative Assembly and the public on the costs, successes and challenges of the Aboriginal child welfare program, consistent with the B.C. Reporting Principles.

They have responded to us that they're going to continue to report to the standing committee for children and youth on “Strong, Safe, and Supported”, and also make presentations to the public accounts committee. More than a year ago they updated their operational plan, which shows what they're going to do.

We made the recommendation because we felt they weren't providing enough information to adequately assess their performance over time.

[Rob Clarke, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Okay.

With the large percentage of aboriginal children in care in British Columbia overall, I'm just wondering how many are being served by the province.