Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Dec. 6th, 2010

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I first have a question for Mr. Doyle, from British Columbia.

I read the information that you sent us with great interest and I obtained your report. Did you undertake another follow-up following your 2008 report? Are you following the situation in British Columbia?

[John Doyle]

Thank you for the question.

We have a detailed follow-up process within the province. Some 12 months after every report is published we go back to the entity concerned and we ask about their progress in dealing with all the recommendations that were made. Then we continue doing it every six months until such time as I determine that we've received enough information or that the recommendations have been dealt with appropriately.

We've had three follow-ups--the first one at the 12-month mark, and then every six months thereafter. We're now in a situation where the ministry has said to us that all the recommendations have been dealt with, although, as I mentioned earlier on, in respect to recommendation six, although they have presented information to the federal government, they have not yet received a formal response.

It's now my option as to whether or not I go in and do more detailed work in regard to the work that they've completed.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

I would now like to ask a question of Ms. Fraser or Ms. Lavallée.

I've been listening, I've been reading, and I've been analyzing the situation. Perhaps even Mr. Doyle could answer this question but I get the impression that it's always long to implement things, despite tripartite agreements signed between the federal government, the provinces and quite often aboriginal communities. The process strikes me as being cumbersome and not particularly quick.

I was shocked to see that 51% of the children taken into custody by the youth protection services in British Columbia are aboriginal children. Elsewhere in Canada, those children represent somewhere between 25% and 30%, and almost 50% Canada-wide, despite these tripartite agreements.

Is the solution for the government to invest more money? And yet hundreds of millions of dollars have been invested without any tangible improvement of the situation.

Ms. Fraser, I read your report, and don't worry, in April we will think of you and have you back to see us. Is that part of your current audit, the follow-up to the 2008 report?

[Sheila Fraser]

In fact, the 2008 follow-up is a part of the report.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

What would be the solution?

[Sheila Fraser]

In my opinion, the most important issue in this entire file is the definition of "comparable services". No one has ever defined what a comparable service is. More money could very well be given, but we do not know whether the services offered to these children and their families are comparable to those that are offered to people who live outside the reserves, nor do we know whether we are sufficiently subsidizing them. So long as we have not defined the services that we must support, it is difficult to estimate the amount of funding that will be needed.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

I have a bit of a problem with the requirement that states that services must be "reasonably comparable with services for children off reserves".

Perhaps this is a simplistic solution, but the government should fund the services, and the provinces, since they are responsible for services to children, should set the standards. Would this not be logical? Is it excessively logical?

[Sheila Fraser]

Oh, oh!

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

All right, it is excessively logical.

With regard to British Columbia, Mr. Doyle, what do you think of it? Would it be better for the federal government to fund the services and for the province to set the standards?

[John Doyle]

I think the level of funding that is required needs to be discussed among the parties to make sure they can put in place all the resources required to deliver appropriate services to children. Far too often there's an assumption that this is what is required as opposed to an analysis of what would be in the best interests of children.

It seems to me, and I share your view, that it takes a long time for this to occur, and anything to speed up that process would be useful. But I am assured by the ministry in B.C. that they're working through this process. Some of the difficulties they're facing are really around making sure the services are delivered to children, on the ground, where they're needed, and then the appropriate funding matches that.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

I have a question. As I have one minute left, I will try to put this question quickly so that you have time to answer.

An aboriginal child living off reserve, for example in Montreal or in Ottawa, obtains services provided by the province. Who is in charge of the aboriginal child from Kitigan Zibi in Maniwaki? Is the province in charge of that child? I do not know.

Ms. Lavallée, I have not heard you and I would like to know your opinion.

[National Chief Betty Ann Lavallée]

Our community doesn't believe the aboriginal child living off reserve is receiving proper care from provincial services.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Thank you, Mr. Lemay.

Now, Ms. Crowder, you have seven minutes. Ms. Glover will come after you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Go ahead, Ms. Crowder.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank our witnesses. I have a bad cold, so you'll have to forgive me.

Mr. Doyle, I represent the riding of Nanaimo--Cowichan on Vancouver Island, so I'm very familiar with B.C. I'm going to make a comment before I ask you a question.

On November 29 the representative for children and youth, Mary Ellen Turpel-Lafond, issued a news release that said, “B.C. children's watchdog slams government”. And although this isn't specific to first nations, the release said:

B.C.'s children's watchdog has issued another scathing report on the province's child welfare system and its progress reforming its operations....Representative for Children and Youth's Mary Ellen Turpel-Lafond says the government has only fully implemented less than half the recommendations in the 2006 landmark report on the child welfare system by retired judge Ted Hughes.

Turpel-Lafond says she is deeply disappointed with the government's progress and is particularly critical of what she sees as a lack of accountability and oversight in the child welfare system.

So despite the government's self-assurances that they've looked at your recommendations, I would be somewhat suspicious that they're actually being fully implemented.

I have one more comment before I ask you a question. A report was issued on July 23, 2010, by the Canadian Council of Provincial Child and Youth Advocates. In that report they indicated things we already know about aboriginal children being disproportionately represented, and as well:

In British Columbia, Aboriginal children are six times more likely to be taken in care than non-Aboriginal Children, and as of March 2010, represent 54% of the province’s In-care child population.

So not only is the child advocate saying that the child welfare system in B.C. is in dismal shape, but in fact the numbers of aboriginal children in care have increased since your report.

In that context, and given your statement that the government is saying it's moving on your ten recommendations, in fact at this point there has been no independent assessment of whether that's accurate.

Is that true?

[John Doyle]

That is correct.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Are there plans anytime soon to have that independent assessment of B.C.'s child welfare services?

You may not be able to comment on that.

[John Doyle]

I don't normally comment on work that I'm undertaking or may undertake. However, I do respond in a similar way to all such requests for information--that is, I think it is time to go and have a look at this area again. Whether that's a follow-up of what we've done previously or additional work, I'm not sure at this stage; I need to fit that into the work plan of the office.

I'm not just forgetting about it. I am actually still considering what needs to be done and to monitor what is happening.

The report that you refer to from the representative, and the relationship that she has with the ministry, is obviously something you'd appreciate that I don't want to comment about. It is a fact at the moment that Mr. Hughes is currently working on talking to both sides of that to see exactly what the issues are and how they can be dealt with.

It is true that the representative has published some very insightful and direct reports in regard to children's safety within the province.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

I won't comment on the difficult situation that the representative often finds herself in, but I appreciate your comments on this.

This next question is to both Mr. Doyle and Ms. Fraser. It's to do with comparable services.

Again, I'm referring to the report of June 23, 2010, by the Canadian Council of Provincial Child and Youth Advocates. In that report, there are a number of key indicators and gaps, but I want to talk about poverty just for one moment.

They indicate—and this is of no surprise to any of us, but I just want it on record--the following:

Aboriginal children are disproportionately living in poverty. Incidence of severe economic hardship is dramatically higher for Aboriginal children and their families. Information collected during the 2006 Census of Population reported by Statistics Canada revealed the following:

Nearly half (49%) of off-reserve First Nations children under the age of 6 were in low-income families, compared to 18% of non-Aboriginal children;

57% of Off-reserve First Nations children living in large cities also lived in low income families....

They go on in this to say that these numbers are very similar for on-reserve children.

My question is around comparable services. I know that both of you have talked about comparable services. Given the fact that first nations children in significant numbers of cases often start off significantly less well off than their counterparts, when we're talking about comparable services, have you made any recommendations around that kind of context?

I know, Ms. Fraser, you've talked about comparable services, and we know that a lot of work hasn't been done around that, but could you comment on that? Just saying that you each get x number of dollars per capita for children doesn't take into account the starting place.

Could you comment on that, Ms. Fraser, and then Mr. Doyle?

[Sheila Fraser]

Well, absolutely. As I mentioned earlier, I think this is one of the main issues in this whole program: the department has not analyzed and compared the child welfare services on reserve with those off reserve. And so you have to question, how can they establish funding levels if they haven't determined the levels and the types of services that should be provided, and the funding that would be associated with that?

One of the problems we noted with the old funding formula—it is in existence in certain jurisdictions of the country—is that preventative services weren't being funded, and yet many of the provinces had moved to that, to preventative services, many years ago.

So I think the department has a responsibility, in my mind, to define what is “comparable services”, and then what is the level of funding associated with that, rather than the way it's being done now.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

We'll have to leave it there. There will be time for another question, I'm sure, Ms. Crowder.

Let's go to Mrs. Glover now, for seven minutes.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to welcome all of our witnesses, and those on video conference as well. It's nice to have you here.

I take child and family services issues pretty much to heart. I spent four and a half years in the child abuse unit and worked very closely with social workers and child and family services workers to protect the interests of mainly our aboriginal children. So I'm glad to be talking about this issue here in our committee; however, we never seem to get to the root causes. That's unfortunate, but we have to work together—governments, aboriginal organizations, and aboriginal people of course—to try to resolve that.

I want to touch on a couple of things that have already been said. In point ten of her statement, Ms. Fraser mentions—and I'm speaking, Mr. Chair, to the CAP president—a new formula that is going to be used. Her paragraph states that five other provinces are now on board with this new enhanced prevention-focused approach.

I make note, Ms. Lavallée, that you thought—and I may have heard it wrong—that Quebec and Manitoba didn't have any kind of agreements with the Government of Canada on CFS matters, but in fact they are two of the five provinces that have joined.

Did you know that Quebec and Manitoba...? I was at the Manitoba announcement, at which $177 million was dedicated. As I say, I may have misunderstood you, but I wanted to make sure that you did know that Quebec and Manitoba do have the enhanced prevention-focused approach agreement in place and are moving forward with it. By 2013 we expect to have all provinces and territories on board.

Did you know that?

[National Chief Betty Ann Lavallée]

No, I was not aware that they had in fact joined at this point. The last I had heard was that there were still the three provinces, which had not yet signed on.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

Very good.

Ms. Fraser, I am pleased that you are talking about the prevention aspect of this, because I agree wholeheartedly. I think this is what the new program is looking at doing: providing some kinship care, some training so that we don't have to seize children from their homes but can try to keep them in their communities. Along with all of that, some of the recommendations that you've made were good recommendations with regard to the definitions of culturally appropriate services and of course comparable services.

I have a couple of questions for you on those items. Have you received word from the government as to how they plan to define “culturally appropriate services”?

[Sheila Fraser]

No, we haven't, Chair. I did of course see the testimony that the department gave before the committee saying that they were going to a policy approach, but we haven't received any specific information. That's something that we would be looking at in our follow-up audit.