Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Dec. 6th, 2010

[John Doyle]

I'm advised it's 70%.

[Rob Clarke, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

What are the numbers?

[John Doyle]

In total, it's about 4,600, so 70% of 4,600 would be about 3,200 or 3,300.

[Rob Clarke, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

How much time do I have?

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

You have two minutes, Mr. Clarke.

[Rob Clarke, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Thank you. Hopefully I have enough time here.

In the May 2008 audit, the Auditor General indicated on page 6 the following:

Under a new formula the Department has developed to take into account current legislation in Alberta, funding to First Nations agencies in that province for the operations and prevention components of child welfare services will have increased by 74 percent when the formula is fully implemented in 2010.

I'm just wondering if you think that's a substantial amount.

[Sheila Fraser]

Obviously an increase of 74% is significant. I guess the question is whether it's enough. We come back to whether the services being provided are comparable to those that would be provided off reserve, and whether the funding is sufficient for that.

I think there are still issues we hear from some of the agencies--that they aren't competitive in paying for social workers; that some of funding formula was built on larger communities; that when you have small, isolated communities, there are difficulties with funding.

But certainly this is a significant improvement from what it was in the 1988 funding formula.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

You have time for a very short question and answer, Mr. Clarke.

[Rob Clarke, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

That's okay.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

All right.

We'll go to Monsieur Lévesque.

[Yvon Lévesque, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon, ladies. Good afternoon, Mr. Doyle.

I made a tour of Canada, I went to Vancouver. Within the framework of the work of the Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans, we met several members of first nations communities regarding the review of small craft harbours. I realized that these young people had the opportunity of doing other things in their village apart from committing misdeeds.

We also went to Yukon, to the Northwest Territories, to Nunavut and to Nunavik. The difference from one place to the other is unbelievable. This is the reason why I wonder how the federal government, a central government, could go about defining the standards that would suit the needs of each province. In fact, these are general standards that apply to all provinces as a whole.

My question is for Ms. Fraser, for Ms. Lavallée or for Mr. Doyle. Do you believe that the federal government will succeed some day in setting standards that will be appropriate for each province, given the fact that the provinces are already having difficulties in setting standards for each of their regions?

[Sheila Fraser]

Let me answer you first. Services for children are first of all a provincial mandate. The federal government funds services for children living on reserve.

In my opinion, it should take into account the standards established by each province and make sure that the services offered to children on reserve are comparable, which means that they receive the same services, whether they live on reserve or off reserve.

I think that some progress has been made regarding the extent of services that it is ready to fund. However, we can suspect that the agencies are still having difficulties with paying wages and remaining competitive, especially in small isolated communities where the costs are obviously much higher.

I do not believe that the federal government is responsible for setting the standards, but it must define the principle of comparability and make sure that it has properly evaluated the associated costs and that the funding is adequate.

[Yvon Lévesque, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Ms. Lavallée, would you like to make a comment?

[National Chief Betty Ann Lavallée]

I believe there certainly has to be a minimum standard set right across Canada for all children, regardless of whether they're aboriginal or not aboriginal. There has to be a minimum standard. But then the standards can be built on by each provincial government to suit the geographic area and the unique culture of that province.

One of the biggest complaints I've heard from aboriginal social workers is that, again, as the Auditor General has stated, they have the same criteria or qualifications but are grossly underpaid and are not able to keep their credentials up to date, and so on. I believe this could be resolved quite simply. I know that in New Brunswick, where I come from, they did a project in conjunction with the University of New Brunswick, where there was an aboriginal social workers program. They put them through in two years instead of the normal four. Most of the aboriginal social workers in the province who were servicing the reserves were, in fact, paid by the provincial government. Thus, any training provided by the provincial government was offered to them at no cost.

So there are ways to do this to ensure that there are comparable services for aboriginal children.

[Yvon Lévesque, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Mr. Doyle, following the statements made by Ms. Fraser and Ms. Lavallée, could you tell us whether you have observed the same things in British Columbia?

[John Doyle]

I thank the member for the question.

We also are going through some development and training of indigenous staff to improve the direct contact with aboriginal children. Those programs are going quite well. There's been quite a successful expansion of the number of staff who come from those particular communities who are able to deliver those programs.

In regard to standards, the ministry within B.C. has looked at the standards that were in place and has determined that they need to develop them further. They are therefore working through a process whereby they expect that by the fall of this year they will be able to cluster around a revised set of standards. They will then staff up their resources to meet those standards across the province.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Merci, monsieur Lévesque.

Now we'll go back to Ms. Glover. She will be followed by Ms. Crowder, then the government, and then Mr. Russell.

Go ahead, Ms. Glover.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have a couple of questions, and I'd like to start with Ms. Fraser once again, if that's okay.

On page 16 of your May 2008 audit, it says that there were “fundamental differences between the views of INAC and Health Canada on responsibility for funding Non-Insured Health Benefits for First Nations children who are placed in care”.

Do you know whether any work has been done between INAC and Health Canada to address these differences?

[Sheila Fraser]

I'm afraid we don't know.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

Okay. I'm sure there will be an update coming. Health Canada changed the non-insured policy so that it does include the children in care, which, I believe, is a good thing...? Would you say that's a...?

[Sheila Fraser]

Obviously I think..... Yes, that's obviously a very good thing.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

Thank you.

Mr. Doyle, in your report you actually talk about small agencies finding it too difficult to take on full protection services in B.C.

Who is served by the small agencies, and what do these agencies do if they're not able to deliver full protection services? Could you clarify that for me?

[John Doyle]

Thank you for the question.

Basically, the work defaults to the provincial agency, the Ministry of Children and Family Development.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

Do you think maybe supporting smaller organizations is a viable option for delivering child welfare services? As you state, sometimes they just are not able to provide the full benefit of the protection services required. Or do you think we should move away from that and allow the province to consistently provide them, the way they do elsewhere?

[John Doyle]

It's part of my legislation that I'm not allowed to comment on policy of government. It's written quite clearly in there that I can't talk about those kinds of decisions.

As an observation, the ministry works closely with these local entities to try to support them as much as possible. There is across the province an interaction between the ministry itself and these agencies to deliver the best possible services to children.