Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Feb. 7th, 2012

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you, Mr. Alcantara.

We'll turn to Mr. Bevington for five minutes.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thanks to the witnesses.

Chief Whiteduck, I'm interested in what you say your problems are right now. Where do you go with your land issues with the federal government? Do you go to the regional level? Where would the office be located, and what kinds of people would be there?

[Chief Gilbert W. Whiteduck]

In our case, it is indeed the regional office, located in Quebec City. They have a very small office—you know, one person with multiple files. Her availability to respond varies. She may be dealing with a permit issue; she may be dealing with an additions to reserve at the same time; she may be dealing with the local municipality in regard to, for example, some other permit that may have been issued some decades ago. That's the kind of thing we're facing.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

Once the addition-to-reserve issue has been through her office, does it then go on to...?

[Chief Gilbert W. Whiteduck]

It goes to Ottawa. It goes back and forth until it's finalized, and then it gets to the minister for a sign-off and then an order in council, for a final.... Certainly that's what we went through; it took four years for a very small piece of land.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

Yes.

We've had some evidence given to us from INAC that in their land division they have 36 people in Ottawa, and at the regional level they have 128 in total across the country. When you look at that number, and you think of the 640 reserves and the complexity of the issues you're dealing with.... How many ATRs are you working on right now?

[Chief Gilbert W. Whiteduck]

There are several that will be appearing on the scene.

I want to clarify one point raised early on about a statement I believe somebody made. My recommendation is not to give more money tothe Department of Indian Affairs; my recommendation is that they need to work more effectively and efficiently, not receive more money. I agree that the funding needs to come down to the community to develop more capacity. But I believe they can do more internally. We're never called upon to offer advice to them about how to improve. That dialogue doesn't occur. They make those decisions.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

Is there any ability for a band to understand where the permits, the ATRs, are within the system? Is there some transparency within the department such that you can say, this is now on this desk or that desk?

[Chief Gilbert W. Whiteduck]

To some extent there is, but it took me four years to convince the regional office to provide me with a timeline chart so that I knew where a file was when it was out of their hands and they were waiting for a response. The representative finally did produce one. It was helpful, but it took four years.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

Yes.

I've had a lot of experience in municipal government, and I am thinking about 640 different first nations and the capacity there. Even in a smaller municipality, you'll have a lands branch to deal with very straightforward transfers of land under very classically laid-out municipal ordinances that are not difficult to deal with. To me, this capacity issue comes up throughout this whole equation that you're talking about: regardless of what system you have in placee, there's a capacity problem. Is that...?

[Chief Gilbert W. Whiteduck]

I agree; there is a capacity issue on both sides. As I say, we have existing and new arrangements occurring, and then we have old, historical arrangements with local municipalities—I'm sure many first nations have those—that still remain to be examined. The Department of Indian Affairs still has a tremendous responsibility regarding permits that were issued, which in some cases—certainly in our case—have a tremendous negative environmental impact, because sewer pipes are being dumped into the community. There's a long story to that; there's a huge environmental impact, and we're trying to correct it. My response, and the point we made to the municipality, is that since it's going nowhere with INAC, we're going to call in the cement truck and are going to fill the pipe with cement, and that wil be the end of that: let it flush the other way. Enough is enough. Our community and a huge part of our land is now contaminated.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Mr. Bevington, you only have 20 seconds.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

Very quickly, Mr. Alcantara, how many cases are you familiar with of expropriation by first nations of their members' land?

[Dr. Christopher Alcantara]

In terms of customary rights, there are a number of cases in Alberta where that's occurred, where members have.... I can't remember which first nation it is now in Alberta, but land was expropriated from a member to build a school for the community. He looked into getting a lawyer to take legal action, but his lawyer said he had no case. The band expropriated his land to build a school. The band granted the individual $20,000, which they didn't have to do, but they provided some financial recompense.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Clarke, for five minutes.

[Rob Clarke, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and I would like to thank the witnesses for coming here today and providing us with some input.

Chief, I'm going to focus on you here. I want to get your expertise here in regard to your community and some of the challenges that you're facing here as well.

I am from north Saskatchewan. We've had the Land Measures Act. People came in last week to discuss the partnership that Saskatoon was having with the first nations communities in Saskatchewan. My question would be more or less on the approach your community is using for land use. How are you utilizing that?

[Chief Gilbert W. Whiteduck]

Could you clarify the question?

[Rob Clarke, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

What type of planning are you doing in your community?

[Chief Gilbert W. Whiteduck]

We have really a number of approaches that we take. One of them, because our community is divided, with 50%, as I mentioned, held in common.... And those lands have lands management, environmental protection and selective cutting. It has also ensured that all of the waterways and lakes have borders where no cutting will ever take place. It's with the intent of sustainability. It is a territory that has fine maple. We have a maple syrup operation in our community. We have that stand of maple. We have a beautiful red and white pine stand that we're trying to keep. Again, we do selective cutting, as required, with old growth and what not. That's one thing.

The other part of the community planning that we're doing is because it's individual CP lots, we've maintained some common grounds within the core of the community for economic development purposes, and slowly those areas are developing. This allows individuals who may not have the appropriate CP lot to come to the band to make an arrangement to begin a business, whether it's a gas station, a hardware store, or whatever the case may be. We keep pieces of land along the highway for those purposes and close to town. That is part of the internal economic development planning that we have.

There is no doubt—and I am pleased by your question—that we need to do a lot more. Very often, it's capacity. Even as a chief, when I got elected, I didn't wake up knowing everything about land. My background was education and social services. I have been learning as I go along. I speak to as many people as I can, but I'm far from being an expert in it.

We do know that planning is important, long term and short term. Environmental issues are important and economic development is important. We're trying to put those pieces of the puzzle together to strengthen the community.

[Rob Clarke, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

How does land-use planning support economic development in your community?

[Chief Gilbert W. Whiteduck]

It ensures, as I said earlier, that key pieces of land are set aside for business development because of their location. Again, the location was key in all of this. That's how the Home Hardware store in the community came to be, and how gas stations and a sports equipment store have gone up. Mr. Odjick runs a printing business in the community—that kind of thing. Those things have sprung up because we kept those pieces of land or individuals made sure they could get their business going on their CP lots. We have been moderately successful in making that occur.

[Rob Clarke, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Are communities engaging in land-use planning? If they're not, what would get more communities involved?

[Chief Gilbert W. Whiteduck]

There are a couple of things, of course.

There's a bit of resourcing. I know that if we had a bit more resourcing, we could do a lot more. I'll very quickly say that we're about to align ourselves with Carleton University's faculty of engineering to do some land work. We're going to have a partnership. We were able to secure some funding from the Department of Aboriginal Affairs to make that happen.

We're doing long-term community planning. We're looking 25 years ahead. We can't make it 50 years, like the NCC, but we're trying to think about 25 years of really laying out how we view our community and what things need to be put in place. Again, we have a few resources to make that happen. As I said earlier, planning for us is very important.

The work that we'll be doing with Carleton University is unique, and I believe it will really help the community in that kind of planning.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you very much.

You mentioned the NCC. In my experience with the NCC, they have a long-term vision and they change that plan every five minutes. So some flexibility would be understood in your planning as well.

It will be Ms. Hughes's turn now for five minutes. Ms. Hughes.

[Carol Hughes, NDP, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

Thank you very much.

Again, thank you for your input today. You talked about your lands management officer. I'm just wondering what kind of education.... Has this person been properly trained to do this, or has that been a hindrance for you? We heard from the National Aboriginal Lands Managers Association that they have trained. Is your lands manager one of those people who have been trained? If not, have you applied to be trained?