Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Feb. 7th, 2012

[Chief Gilbert W. Whiteduck]

He is indeed one of those individuals who has been following, on an ongoing basis over the years, all the training and all the meetings and he's able to exchange with colleagues across Canada. That is important because we're also learning from best practices occurring elsewhere and sharing our practices and our challenges. That's what he does, but he is alone in his office. As I said earlier, on any given day he has membership to deal with, he may have recurring CPs, he may be working on a permit, or many things. He does what he can.

[Carol Hughes, NDP, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

Just on that note, how detrimental would this be if this person were to leave? Would your community have the funds to retrain somebody else?

[Chief Gilbert W. Whiteduck]

I don't know what we would do. Once this expertise, this capacity, is developed and someone disappears on us like that, I don't know what we would do, to be honest with you. We would still carry on, obviously, but things would slow down tremendously. Other people with a bit less capacity and background would have to take up the load.

[Carol Hughes, NDP, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

Earlier you talked about the many challenges of northern development or economic development in your area and some of the challenges you've had with the Department of Indian Affairs. I'm just wondering, because you talked about the environmental stresses that your community is currently facing and has faced for a long time. Even with everything in place, would there still be challenges with respect to some of the environmental problems that you're experiencing right now to lure economic development to the area?

[Chief Gilbert W. Whiteduck]

I think those environmental challenges will always be there, because some of the portions of land around our community are contaminated soils. We have one area where there used to be an old logging mill. They tore it down and all the oil leaked out from the transformers and what not. At one point we were going to acquire that land for development, but it's so contaminated. It's in our backyard and it's seeping into the river and no one knows what to do with it.

So we have that on one end and then we have a sewer pipe from the town of Maniwaki that was built in the sixties and continues to be emptied into our community. It's now more a storm sewer pipe than what it used to be. It was raw sewage before.

Again, we're caught with all those lands.

We're trying to develop partnerships, we're trying to find solutions. It's capacity. We can only juggle so many things at the same time in the community. These things are huge and take time and very often there are only a few of us at many tables trying to carry this expertise to bring about change.

[Carol Hughes, NDP, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

Did you say you were getting some funding, or you weren't getting any funding at all and your requests have fallen on a deaf ear with respect to assistance with that?

[Chief Gilbert W. Whiteduck]

We're not getting any funding with regard to dealing with environmental contaminations and what not. We can speak to people and we can maybe get a response. So we're left on our own.

[Carol Hughes, NDP, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

Again, you talked about potable water and the infrastructure. Even if you have everything in order with respect to your land—and I have to take communities like Attawapiskat or some of the other remote communities—so even if you have everything lined up, if the infrastructure is not there it's going to be very difficult to be able to even move any project forward if you don't have housing for people to stay in, if you don't have potable water or electricity. So I'm just wondering if you have some comments as to what the package deal should be.

[Chief Gilbert W. Whiteduck]

There is no doubt that without the infrastructure there is a tremendous problem.

In our community, where there's uranium in the water, where only 40% of our community can now drink the water, last year there was a substantial investment. We recognize that the Conservative government invested some $12 million in getting potable water to at least 40%. So it was a good start.

We now need to reach the remainder of the community, because 60% are still receiving bottled water. I'm one of those and so is Councillor Odjick. Also all the challenges behind bottled water for our elders: our women have to carry it outside; sometimes people are out of their homes, and the bottles freeze; in the summer mould sets in because you happen not to be home. So the infrastructure is key to developing housing and economic development in the long term. Some of that key infrastructure located in the centre of the community is now there, around those lands we set aside for economic development opportunities.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you, Chief.

Our last questioner of the second round is Mr. Boughen, for five minutes.

[Ray Boughen, Conservative, Palliser, SK]

Thank you, Chair.

Let me welcome the panel. Thank you, folks, for coming and visiting with us this afternoon.

Chief, you mentioned that you're looking at balancing the environmental concerns you have on the reserve and some things that are happening which aren't conducive to good management of the environment. Could you expand on that a little for us? You mentioned the sewer line that was emptying into the reserve. Are there other issues, and if so, what are they?

[Chief Gilbert W. Whiteduck]

That is one of the key issues.

Of course I mentioned an old, large sawmill that was next to the community. We're in dialogue with the municipalities, we're in dialogue with the Government of Quebec, we're in dialogue with many people, but no one wants to move.

In the case of the sewer line coming into the community, it's been estimated that to replace it would cost at least $7 million—a huge amount. Of course, the town doesn't want to raise its taxes; no one wants to invest. But in the meantime, it's still coming into our community. That is the problem and has been since the 1960s. The community agreed to a right-of-way usage in the 1960s, a kind of permit system. Many people were not aware, as we came to learn after digging through a lot of documentation. For us, it wasn't to create an obstacle with the town. We want to look for a solution. But at the same time, we need to protect our territory.

The issue is very frustrating, because it just doesn't move. People are just not attentive to our reality. It's as if “out of sight, out of mind”: it's being dumped on a reserve; let's dump it on the reserve.

We will not accept that.

[Ray Boughen, Conservative, Palliser, SK]

No, I don't blame you.

Thank you, Chair. I'll pass it to Greg.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Mr. Rickford, if you are splitting the time with Mr. Boughen, feel free to.... Why don't you jump in there, Mr. Rickford?

[Greg Rickford, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Thank you.

I had asked Ray as a friend and colleague to ask a specific question that I have, but maybe we'll go a little bit further with it and hear briefly from Mr. Alcantara on this.

Some of what we talk about is an environmental management gap, Chief Whiteduck, whereby we have particular environmental issues for which there is no legislation that applies on reserves or there are issues as a result of inadequate enforcement.

I appreciate what you're saying and your perspective, because in the great Kenora riding, of course, we have a number of reserves very close to the city. The minister and I recently took a trip to Quebec, where we saw good relationships around critical infrastructure between the first nation community and the city.

I believe you have some positive things to reflect on. Could you, as Ray would have said, expound on that just a little bit more? Talk about this gap and what things we need to do to address it, in terms of enforcement or what have you.

[Chief Gilbert W. Whiteduck]

You are right; there don't appear to be enforcement tools that could be readily used by the community or by band council to address this issue. Our relationship, I suppose, like those of many other first nations with the local municipality, is frigid at best. We have an invisible wall between the municipality and us. Yes, we share on certain services, such as fire services, and at one point water services. But the town has always been open when the federal government is willing to invest money in their infrastructure.

We continue to try to dialogue. For us, it's to find sustainable solutions that will protect, but solutions in which we're in control. It's very upsetting when our voice or our words are not considered at the same level as someone else's. We're always trying. We hold public meetings on a monthly basis. We meet with our community members. We're trying to reflect what it is they're telling us, to make sure that we're indeed bringing forward what it is they believe is important for the community.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you, Mr. Rickford.

I'm going to use the discretion of the chair and frustrate all my colleagues by taking as much time as I want in our closing.

There are a couple of things I've heard from committee members I want to touch on.

Mr. Alcantara, we've spoken to Chief Whiteduck with respect to his band's challenge and what seems to be the regulatory gap that exists on reserve under the Indian Act. Can you speak generally about how this might be addressed—first about whether there's a way to address it under the Indian Act, but moving forward, whether there are land codes and provisions in one form of management compared with another that might better or worse address that regulatory gap?

[Dr. Christopher Alcantara]

The solution is going to require a two-pronged approach. One is parallel legislation that allows first nations to develop their own land management regimes. That includes not only creating legislation, but also giving first nations tools and the capacity to make use of them.

The other thing has to do with the Indian Act itself, with making it more efficient. The question you need to ask the Department of Indian Affairs is why we have regional offices. Why do CPs have to be vetted by regional offices and then Ottawa? Why can't we streamline the process? Why do we use a land registry system that is completely outdated, impossible to search, and difficult to verify? Why don't we move to a modern Torrens land registry system? Half the provinces in Canada use it, and history has shown it to be an easily searchable and secure way of registering property.

It's a two-pronged approach: first, strengthen the efficiency of the Department of Indian Affairs, ask these types of questions, and think about ways of strengthening the Indian Act elements; second, facilitate parallel legislation.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

With regard to the First Nations Land Management Act, Mr. Alcantara, you've written about the challenge for smaller, or poorer communities to be able to buy into or be part of the First Nations Land Management Act.

First of all, I'd ask you generally about what makes a good candidate. We have now around 50 first nations that are either moved into or moving into the First Nations Land Management Act. Here, a couple weeks ago, the minister announced 18 new entrants. What characteristics make them good candidates for the regime?

Second, what about those first nations that really are not good candidates for this regime? Is there some other regime that would work better? Have you seen a new parallel system that would work better for them?

[Dr. Christopher Alcantara]

As to ideal candidates, I really don't know. My research hasn't looked at that, except to say it has to be a first nation that is interested in taking control and is willing to weather the costs of doing so. It really comes down to the community, whether they want to take control of this themselves.

I will say, though, that it's getting easier now for first nations. The conditions to get into it are relaxing. The more first nations do it, the more model land codes and model land laws will become available for emulation, and the larger their network for support will grow. Networks are very important. As more first nations opt into it, it will lead to more and more first nations being able to do it. The start-up costs will be much less.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Mr. Alcantara, Chief Whiteduck, Councillor, I appreciate your testimony.

We appreciate your willingness to come and bring testimony on this important subject. I look forward to meeting you again. We will be undertaking this study over the next number of months, and we'll be hearing from witnesses from across this country.

Thank you so much.

Colleagues, we'll break now and give you an opportunity to meet with the witnesses. We'll suspend for a few minutes, but I don't want to take too long, because I want to get into committee business as soon as possible.

We'll now suspend.

[Proceedings continue in camera]