Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on March 8th, 2012

[Frank Barrett]

Perhaps I could ask Kimberley Leach to answer your question.

[Kimberley Leach, Principal, Office of the Auditor General of Canada]

In our audit in 2010, we noted in paragraph 4.23 that INAC had used alternative approaches at negotiation tables when negotiation appeared to be stalled. We noted, for example, the then INAC proposed steps the aboriginal group could take to better outline its position to enhance a better understanding, and that this particular group had accepted this proposal to present its work to the department for response in the coming months.

Another example is that the department negotiated interim agreements with groups in unsettled regions. One of these was in the Dehcho region, where an interim land use plan was proposed. Here, where they did not have an official land use plan in place because there was no comprehensive land claim, they did negotiate an interim land use plan, and I believe that's still ongoing.

[Jonathan Genest-Jourdain, NDP, Manicouagan, QC]

Thank you.

Here's another question for one of you three, particularly the one of you that has the information to answer.

With respect to the coming into force of the First Nations Land Management Act, I see in one of the documents I have in front of me that there must be an agreement on environmental management and that this was not done for any of the communities.

Could you indicate which aspects prevented the ratification of which agreements? This isn't recent. I see here that it was in 1999. So it's been 13 years. Which aspects ultimately prevented the signing of these agreements?

[Frank Barrett]

Mr. Chair, I'd be happy to take a stab at addressing that question.

With first nations lands, one of the conditions for entering into a land management act is to have an environmental management agreement in place, but we were finding that in order to do so, the first nation would have to assume all environmental responsibilities on the reserve, and in fact often it wasn't clear what the condition of the land was prior to entering into that. For example, if there was contaminated soil on the land or if there were other issues, it would be important for the federal government to clean the land first, so to speak, but if that wasn't done, then entering into an environmental management agreement could become very problematic. Often that would become a stumbling block to entering into the FNLMA.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you for that answer.

Thank you, Mr. Genest-Jourdain.

Mr. Wilks, we'll turn it over to you for five minutes.

[David Wilks, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My questions will be directed to NAFA. Thank you very much for coming.

We know that the forestry sector has been struggling for a number of years. Wihat are aboriginal communities and businesses that have historically relied on timber harvesting now looking to do in regard to diversity in their forestry strategy?

[Harry Bombay]

Thank you for that question.

We have a situation in Canada whereby our traditional role had been to harvest wood and to supply wood to large forest companies. The situation now is shifting, because we now hold forest tenure on our own through provincial forest tenure systems, in amounts that are greater than some of the volumes available in certain provinces.

What we're trying to do is shift a lot of our focus toward the marketing of forest products by aboriginal forest companies. We wish to see a situation whereby aboriginal people will begin to develop, for their forest companies, markets for their products. They include a range of products, including lumber, commodity products, value-added forest products, and some products in the new areas with respect to bioenergy and other uses of forest products and materials.

[David Wilks, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

When the forest sector rebounds, as I believe it will at some point in time, how can NAFA help aboriginal communities be ready to seize new market opportunities? As well, do the communities have the skilled labourers? If not, how can NAFA help aboriginal youth enter the forest industry workforce?

[Harry Bombay]

At the present time, getting youth to come into the forest sector is very difficult, and this is true of both aboriginal and non-aboriginal youth. We have a challenge before us, and it is one that should be addressed by governments throughout the country and certainly by us. We are prepared to work on those kinds of issues. Focused human resource development strategies are needed to deal with forest management in Indian reserve land forestry and in tenures held through provincial systems, as well as in areas that we see the forest sector going into—biotechnology, biomaterials science, and a whole range of new areas that are being explored.

We think it's an exciting prospect as the forest sector shifts and changes in Canada, but it's not going to be of great value to aboriginal communities unless we get out front in terms of human resource development strategies.

Brad, if you would like to add anything on that, go ahead.

[Brad Young, Senior Policy Analyst, National Aboriginal Forestry Association]

Thank you for that question.

I guess I'm a bit younger than Harry, as any of you can see. When I went to university, I went into the governance path, but many of the colleagues I went to school with were going to school to be RPFs. In the forest sector, because of the political tug and pull over the forest provincial agreements and land claims, a lot of my colleagues went into the “chief” business instead of going into the RPF business, and overall we're winning some of these arguments.

Now, as Harry says, we have millions of cubic metres of annual allowable cut a year on a national basis. We have done some forecasting on large niche markets that first nations could participate in. One market we're analyzing right now, certified wood products, is in the range of about $24 billion a year. Canada's percentage of that is about $7.8 billion. There's a really good opportunity to grow that $7.8 billion by about 50% if we could just get some capital into first nations businesses and get our RPFs, our technically savvy business-oriented youth, out of the political brinkmanship game and into the economic development nation-building game.

I think that is a great challenge. Harry was quite diplomatic in presenting the facts on what goes into the non-first nations forest sector. We did a quick analysis of that. Harry mentioned a figure of hundreds of millions, but we zeroed in on a more accurate number: about $1.1 billion of government funding went directly into forest products such as the FPAC system, FPInnovations, and controlled wood. That's great for that segment of the forest sector, but on the other side, while we have land claims being negotiated and economic development that could be happening in the first nations hinterland, there's very little policy support and governmental support for that side of development. I think that's a great waste of economic effort and human talent.

I think that would be an area of focus, and we're ready to play a role there. There's a new generation coming on board, and we are looking for partnership from the Government of Canada.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you, Mr. Young.

Mr. Bevington is next.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and I want to thank the witnesses as well.

When we hit phase two of our study, which is traditional lands, we would like to see you back here. I'm trying to focus my questions around phase one, which is reserve land.

What percentage of the 13 million cubic metres of available forest product is on reserve land?

[Harry Bombay]

It's very little. Most of the wood available to us is through the forest provincial tenure system, the surrounding crown land. Reserve land harvest might equal at the most 300,000 or 400,000 cubic metres of wood a year. It's quite small.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

Are traditional lands where your crown land acquisitions are mostly coming from?

[Harry Bombay]

The traditional lands?

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

Traditional territory.

[Harry Bombay]

Traditional territories are crown lands, in some people's view. It's the land surrounding the territories the first nations traditionally use, regardless of jurisdiction.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

Are the provinces negotiating these leases with you on the basis of inherent right to traditional territory?

[Harry Bombay]

We're quite certain that is what's driving it, yes. It's a recognition of the aboriginal rights on those lands, of the duty of the governments to consult and accommodate our interests and to move towards a recognition of rights. What is offered by governments often is forest tenure as an interim measure towards the actualization of our rights.

However, first nations don't view it as the end. It's an interim measure, as many of the measures are, dealing with resource use in Canada today.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

Many of the first nations communities are remote and isolated, off the conventional gas delivery systems. They're fueled, in many cases, by fuel oil. What about the bioenergy potential within the aboriginal communities across northern Canada? Is that something you are actively engaged in?

[Harry Bombay]

Brad has just authored a paper on that, so I'll turn it over to him.

[Brad Young]

It's been of critical interest for a lot of remote first nations communities.

There's some very good work out of Confederation College here in Ontario, looking at a template-type operation of a one-megawatt bioenergy wood pellet cogeneration system, which they're actually building right now. It's under construction there at Confederation College.

One of the things they want to do is pull in these remote first nations and say, “Look, feel, see, touch. Look at our financials. Look at the metrics. Look at our supply chain. Copy it. Go to a financial institution. Get the trades people in place, and build it in your communities, if the metrics work out.”

When you start looking at the possibility there, you look at the critical role of the preliminary front-end research and analysis, and then the gentle hand of government playing a supporting role, so it's of critical interest. It's an overall national strategic consideration as well.

We've also received requests from, of all places, remote first nations indigenous people in Russia, as a part of some of our international work, saying, “We know that you Canadians have a lot of really good technology. We know that your remote first nations are starting to take a look at bioenergy. We know that some”—I think it's six first nations tenures in Ontario, the larger ones—“will be first nations pellet plants in the bioenergy complex.” Other countries are looking at us.

It's a matter of imagination and of will coming out of committees like this, and through the government, to start activating some of these initiatives. We look for your support to follow up on it.

Thank you for the question.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you, Mr. Young.

Mr. Clarke, you have five minutes.

[Rob Clarke, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I'd like to thank the witnesses for meeting here this afternoon.

My question is for the National Aboriginal Forestry Association, and then I'll probably segue to all of you near the end.

I come from northern Saskatchewan, where timber harvesting is very prominent. We're seeing that the market is fluctuating through some very tough times and is trying to make ends meet. In northern Saskatchewan we have a large aboriginal population of Métis and first nations. We have a couple of examples of forest industries; NorSask is one, owned by Meadow Lake Tribal Council.

In that area, forestry is really almost the driving economic hub, and we see development also taking place in natural resources for oil sands. We see other opportunities up north in rare earths and a number of other things. However, I'll basically focus on forestry.

Patuanak, a small and remote first nations community with not a very good road going in or coming out, has developed a bridge into some very pristine virgin timber. It hasn't been accessed before. We've seen the first nation community actually take the initiative to harvest the resource there.

Now I'm wondering about economic development. We see the woodland caribou strategy coming forward, and I see how the opposition is pushing for that woodland caribou strategy. We see how the David Suzuki Foundation is utilizing the website by inappropriate means through the submission process.

What I'm really getting at is that under the woodland caribou strategy that's being finalized here—I think the submission deadline was February 22 or 23 of this year—I wonder how the strategy for your area will be affected. We see northern Saskatchewan being focused on by the woodland caribou strategy as the incubator for the recovery process—just northern Saskatchewan—but it's going to affect Alberta, Manitoba, Quebec, and areas over into Newfoundland and Labrador as well. Right now, it's Saskatchewan that's going to be facing the test, I should say.

Looking at this and wildlife habitat protection initiatives, I'm wondering how the aboriginal communities are going to derive an economic benefit from the forest resources that surround them. What type of consultation are you doing with the aboriginal and first nations communities to promote economic development?

[Harry Bombay]

This is going to have to be a long answer.