Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on April 3rd, 2012

[Clarence T. Jules]

I've worked with the whole range of communities ranging from Squamish that has multi-billion dollar potential in terms of development. I worked initially with Westbank on the implementation of taxation and a number of communities right across the country. Some of them start out relatively small. One good example was in Millbrook by Truro. They're not really isolated, but when I first started to work with them, they had a $25,000 tax base. Now they have a Tim Hortons, a cineplex, motel complexes, all of those.

If you can't imagine an economic solution, then you can't think about it. What we have to begin to do is to get people to use their imagination about what is possible. In my particular case, that's hope for the future.

[Greg Rickford, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

We've been working with first nations land management, and again I appreciate this option theme that's coming out. What is your sense of what implementation would look like for something like this or potential entrant communities? I've got notions of the Torrens system having to be introduced. I've got ideas around fee simple both in concept and in practical application. We have a process with first nations land management whereby an entrant goes in and resources are available then to build capacities in these different areas. You mentioned the environment.

If I had more time, I'd talk about the interesting ideas around the province. These are all parts of the capacity piece that we're talking about with first nations land management.

How does that interface with what you're bringing forward today, at least by way of comparison?

[Clarence T. Jules]

To be quite honest, we're going to learn an awful lot from the experience of FNLMA, from the communities that are going through that process and where they're going to be headed.

There's a couple of communities involved in this process that are part of FNLMA. What we're going to be able to do is have.... I don't know if I mentioned it at all, but I've set up an institution called Tulo. Tulo is a Chinook word meaning “profit”. It's a centre for indigenous economics. It's being set up in conjunction with Thompson Rivers University. We'll have university programs. We're going to have accredited administrators who have a sense of what needs to be done in terms of the economic approach.

We're appealing to communities that have an economic vision for the future. That has to be translated from the thought into the practical application of education and training, and then followed through the system. Tulo is a critical component of that.

We'll be having workshops at the community level so that the community is ready and able to assume the jurisdiction. That's a lot of work with the proponent communities and with the individuals. In many cases, it's about building trust between the councils and the people who actually own the land, because in many cases there isn't enough trust between the two.

It's creating a national institution, really, that can impart knowledge quickly and easily to first nations so that we can speed up the process instead of waiting another 40 or 50 years, or another two or three generations.

[Greg Rickford, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

I know that I'm out of time, but I just want to say thank you for this today. I look forward to you coming out to our region to at least begin a conversation—as you say, a fulsome debate—on the options that are out there. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Ms. Duncan, we'll turn to you for the next five minutes.

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

I wonder if we could go back to the role of the First Nations Tax Commission, because we actually haven't had a chance in this review to learn about what the commission does.

In looking at the terms of reference, I see that this looks quite similar to the other boards and commissions we've had in here, but you're concentrated on building capacity, providing guidance, and so forth in the establishment and delivery of taxation systems, and also in leaseholds. I'm just wondering if you can share with us some of the lessons learned.

For example, do you need more dollars for capacity? Is it an issue of capacity? Is it just that some have opportunities and some don't? Could you just share with us some examples and maybe some recommendations to improve the system so that first nations can actually benefit from those two goals?

[Clarence T. Jules]

This is why I really liked the announcement in the federal budget that there is going to be more money for education. One of the limiting factors we have is being able to bring students to Tulo to educate them. We have to be very creative in terms of trying to find and create bursaries so that we can have an educated administration. That's the way we disseminate information from the inner workings, if you will, of the tax commission. That's where we lock, if you will, with the communities.

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Do you currently have a fund to bring in people and to go out and teach?

[Clarence T. Jules]

We've done it through a number of ways, and those ways are getting more and more difficult to pursue, meaning that we don't have the resources to do it but we've found resources to do it—

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

It sounds like you're hopeful. My understanding was that the education money was to build schools, but I'm glad to hear you sound hopeful that some of the money is actually going to deliver the programs.

[Clarence T. Jules]

Well, I would hope so.

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Okay.

I'm going to turn it over to my colleague, Ms. Hughes, who I think has some questions.

[Clarence T. Jules]

I could go on about all of those....

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Ms. Hughes.

[Carol Hughes, NDP, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

I talked to one of my first nations chiefs on this. I was just wondering about it, because before we could even go down the road of taxation, they're saying that they feel the treaties would need to be recognized, first of all, and their land claims would have to be dealt with in order to do it. I'm just wondering about your comments on that. Do you support that quote from him?

I've spoken to a few of them, actually, because they're saying that before you can even do this, you need to resolve a few things, and it's not going to work because the fact of the matter is that these land claims have been sitting there for a long, long time. Some of my first nations are not getting any responses from the minister's office on these issues.

[Clarence T. Jules]

If a community or a leadership chooses to use that approach, I'm not going to argue with that individual. If an individual community or council comes forward and says they want to do this, I'm more than happy to go in and work with them.

That's what optionality is all about. It's the freedom of choice.

[Carol Hughes, NDP, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

The other question I have is with respect to a comment that you made about the difference between the certificate, the fee simple, and the ownership piece. You said they're not going to go out there and sell their lands. But if they own the land they have an option to sell it to whomever they want, do they not?

[Clarence T. Jules]

That's correct.

[Carol Hughes, NDP, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

So I'm just wondering how much support that would bring to some of the communities when they're going to see a checkered effect in their communities. I know this is very near and dear to their heart to ensure that their communities remain whole.

[Clarence T. Jules]

Yes, but we're dealing with situations even in Ontario where you've already got lots of leasehold interest. The majority of non-native residents on reserve lands are here in Ontario—the vast majority. So when we talk about having a lace or a checkerboard effect, it's already the situation. We're not proposing to do that. It's up to the individual communities to make those kinds of informed decisions.

[Carol Hughes, NDP, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

At the same time the community's interest is being protected with respect to that land.

Another piece on that is the CMHC piece. The fact of the matter is that first nation members can actually get CMHC financing, and again, the community's interest is being protected. Maybe you could clarify that for me.

[Clarence T. Jules]

That's one of the problems. You have a dispute between CMHC and Aboriginal Affairs over who has responsibility for the provision of houses on reserve lands. Then, to complicate matters even further, you have individuals from your communities and others who say they have a treaty right to a home.

[Carol Hughes, NDP, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

Sagamok First Nation is an example.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Ms. Hughes, you're out of time. I do apologize, but you've gone over by 30 seconds. It's okay if the witness will finish answering but I don't want supplementary questions asked.

Now I'm going to take the chair's prerogative. Actually my colleagues on this side have ceded their question time to me.

[Clarence T. Jules]

Mr. Chair, I want to finish answering this question.