Evidence of meeting #32 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was fnpo.
A recording is available from Parliament.
5:10 p.m.
Chief Commissioner and Chief Executive Officer, First Nations Tax Commission
In order for a CMHC loan to happen on reserve, the band council has to ask the Minister of Indian Affairs to provide a ministerial guarantee. Even when you go to a bank—there are a couple of banks that provide housing on reserve lands—the band council is asked to backstop that. That's led to a situation where the majority of communities that end up in third-party management are a direct result of individuals not paying back their housing loans, and it's because they don't own it.
5:10 p.m.
NDP
Carol Hughes NDP Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON
I just want to say that it's worked very well for Sagamok First Nation.
5:10 p.m.
Chief Commissioner and Chief Executive Officer, First Nations Tax Commission
There are—
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin
There are no comments from committee members unless it's your time.
I'm going to jump in now.
Mr. Jules, like many proposals that come to this table, there's interpretation and there's misinterpretation of different things, and I certainly appreciate your clarity with regard to your own proposal. I think it's sometimes important to hear from the actual proponent of a proposal rather than just listening to the opponents.
There are those who would liken your proposal to the federal government's 1969 white paper that sought to distinguish the rights of aboriginal people to land. I'm wondering if you could just add some clarity. I think you've been clear in your explanations today, but I still maybe don't understand the process in how a first nation community would retain the constitutionally protected right to always be the underpinning of the land. So even if it went into private hands, what would be necessary to ensure that it always came back to the first nation, so that it was always still first nation land, that it wasn't provincial lands, and that even though it was sold multiple times, it continued to be part of the first nation community?
5:10 p.m.
Chief Commissioner and Chief Executive Officer, First Nations Tax Commission
First, let's go back to “Choosing a Path”. This was, from my understanding, part of the Trudeau government, because of his thoughts about Indian reserves being the model for the apartheid in South Africa. He philosophically didn't agree with apartheid. He wanted to do away with the Indian Act. Because of that, there was a policy paper called "Choosing a Path" about exploring that option. It was rejected by all communities across the country. It's because of that position that, on January 24 of this year, the Prime Minister said the Conservative government wasn't going to blow up the Indian Act. He said it had long roots and it wasn't up to him. So we realize it's up to us to make those choices.
We talked about section 35 of Canada's Constitution, the recognition of our inherent right to self-government, and all of those other niceties that are in the Canadian Constitution. It's not as though we're dealing with the St. Catharines Milling case, where the Premier of Ontario argued before the Supreme Court that lands ceased to be Indian lands if they were used for any purpose other than an Indian reserve. When you look at everything that has taken place over 100 years, the underpinning is constitutionally doable by the federal government.
5:15 p.m.
Conservative
5:15 p.m.
Chief Commissioner and Chief Executive Officer, First Nations Tax Commission
Oh, yes.
5:15 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin
—as being a way for lands to cease to belong to first nations as soon as they are held in private ownership. Would there be a provision in your proposal under which those lands would be constitutionally protected as first nations' land.
5:15 p.m.
Chief Commissioner and Chief Executive Officer, First Nations Tax Commission
Well, I think that—
5:15 p.m.
Conservative
5:15 p.m.
Chief Commissioner and Chief Executive Officer, First Nations Tax Commission
This isn't a treaty process. This isn't a self-government process. We've given considerable thought to whether or not this could be done under 91(24) of the Constitution Act. These lands will continue to be lands reserved for our purposes.
5:15 p.m.
Chief Commissioner and Chief Executive Officer, First Nations Tax Commission
That's right. It's constitutionally protected.
5:15 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin
I'm not a lawyer and I don't purport to be and I don't even purport to understand the process, but there are legal opinions that would assure you that it would be protected constitutionally. I'm thankful for them. That's helpful information. I'm wondering if there are any documents that could be distributed to the committee with regard to the legal opinions.
5:15 p.m.
Chief Commissioner and Chief Executive Officer, First Nations Tax Commission
Yes.
5:15 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin
That would be helpful.
I'll turn to Ms. Bennett now for her questions.
5:15 p.m.
Liberal
Carolyn Bennett Liberal St. Paul's, ON
Your proposal has a long history. It received some acknowledgment in the budget last week. What would you see as the timeline in respect of the budget and the money it would take? I don't believe there is any dollar value in the budget document.
5:15 p.m.
Chief Commissioner and Chief Executive Officer, First Nations Tax Commission
I'm glad that you asked that question. One of the things I have been wanting to do is create national institutions that facilitate true self-governance. That means an ability for the institutions to create money to operate themselves. Part of the proposal is to have property transfers so that the land title system would ultimately be self-supporting. We're using pretty much the same formula as FNLMA as a transition. It isn't going to be in perpetuity that you get the money, but—
5:15 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin
I apologize. This time I do have to interrupt because it's my requirement.
We have, I believe, half-hour bells. If there's consent, we can continue to complete Ms. Bennett's five minutes. I believe it's about four more minutes. If colleagues are okay with that, we'll just continue for the next four minutes.
Let's get some confirmation on the time of the vote.
5:15 p.m.
Voices
Thirty minutes.
5:15 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin
It's a 30-minute bell, so we're fine, if colleagues are amicable for the four minutes.
Turning it over to you, again, Ms. Bennett, for the remainder of your time.
5:20 p.m.
Chief Commissioner and Chief Executive Officer, First Nations Tax Commission
To continue answering the question, the intention is to create institutions that ultimately are self-supporting, and also that the communities would be able to share that responsibility, from larger communities to smaller ones, because that straightens out some of the inequity issues. That's the approach we're taking. Ultimately, some of the moneys are going to have to be fine-tuned, if you will, and that will be part of the request made to government.
As for the timing, I mentioned earlier that I continue to be an optimist. I'm hoping that the legislation will be introduced this fall, and realistically, probably passed soon after—not within a number of months, but within a small number of months.
5:20 p.m.
Liberal
Carolyn Bennett Liberal St. Paul's, ON
In your conversations with government, seeing that there wasn't any money in this budget for it, do you see the act being tabled in the fall and then money in next year's budget for it? Or what are you hoping for?